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Main forum => GLBasic - en => Topic started by: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-22

Title: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-22
I did a search on the forum for some animation code...

And turned up some pure out-of-date stuff...maybe deprecated code should be filed away or removed...if better method or newer commands exist ?

I know Gernot is very busy, but a couple of the more experienced guys could moderate and cleanup the forum - code-wise..?

Just a suggestion...
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-22
The forum search function here isn't too good. However, I don't think even old code should be archived, as even if some of it doesn't work due to GLBasic being updated, it generally shouldn't take much work to get it to function as originally intended. Even old, non-working code can form the basis of understanding as to how something should work.

Going through all the old code on the forums and fixing/updating would be like painting the Forth bridge - a new GLB update may bugger up what you've just fixed, so it would be never-ending.

If you have a specific example of a piece of non-functioning code, then by all means mention it to the Mod team. Maybe they'll fix it.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Hark0 on 2013-Aug-24
Hi Ian, about forum...

The PM notifications don't arrive by mail... O_O

Please check-it!


TIA, Hark0
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-24
Quote from: Hark0 on 2013-Aug-24
Hi Ian, about forum...

The PM notifications don't arrive by mail... O_O

Please check-it!


TIA, Hark0
Schranzor is probably the best person to ask for this - I wouldn't dare go tinkering with any back-end stuff! I don't think I have access to it anyway.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Schranz0r on 2013-Aug-24
 :S

Have to check it...  :puke:
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-24
Looks like it's working, as I received an email about a PM. :)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Schranz0r on 2013-Aug-24
hehe, that was only for testing  :whistle:
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Aug-24
I think the seerver goes to exploids, here we have a toons of info and each time it's more dificult find somthing, I don't know what search the another day and appears 200 and more answers...

I don't know if it's better delete some very old things, or make GLbasic 2.0 web or really between a group of voluntaires (I'm the first obviously), put some ordner in examples, C++ code and all this 3er party codes...

Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Moru on 2013-Aug-25
When you search it's very important that you are in the correct place for your search. If you were just reading the spanish forum and suddenly you want to search for a code snippet and just type it in the searchbox, the forum will only search the spanish forum. Click the logo before you do a search and the forum will search the whole forum.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Aug-25
QuoteWhen you search it's very important that you are in the correct place for your search. If you were just reading the spanish forum and suddenly you want to search for a code snippet and just type it in the searchbox, the forum will only search the spanish forum.

Thanks a lot Moru, I don't know about this...  :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-25
I think my main gripe was just with the obsolete and deprecated commands...I found a piece of code with "SPRITE" as a command - which i assume is an old version of Drawsprite...

Perhaps a tidy is up is all that is required - but it very awkward for beginners to get past a certain level without going through a lot of unnecessary posts...

Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: kanonet on 2013-Aug-25
GLB is very careful with modifying old features, almost every update is fully backwards compatible, so there arent much depreciated commands at all. LET, SPRITE, BLACKSCREEN, can remember more atm. Too bad a few of them are still in the tutorials...

Btw you can use the advanced search, just select that you only want result that are not older then 1000 days e.g. so you dont find old, maybe outdated posts.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2013-Aug-25
75673 Posts in 8472 Topics by 749 Members.

That is a serious amount of checking required for cleaning up. Sure a lot of posts can be skimmed through which contain no code but the ones that do would require reading the full code or downloading/compiling it to see what errors or obsolete commands are present.

I agree it is confusing for a beginner & I suffered the same problems when I started out with GLB, but while a few old posts may contain the odd outdated command the logic or process behind the code should still work fine. I used that to my advantage in learning GLB & unless I got really stuck then I posted on the forum for help.

If you do come across a post that has issues with the current version of GLB then have a go at getting it to work & post the working code back in the same place so others benefit, or is you can't get the code to work just place a post in the same subject asking for help & I'm sure someone will lend a hand. That way all of us can help keep the code in the forum more up to date on an ad-hoc basis without the need of someone having to trawl through the whole forum.

Lee
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-25
Quote from: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-25
I think my main gripe was just with the obsolete and deprecated commands...I found a piece of code with "SPRITE" as a command - which i assume is an old version of Drawsprite...

Perhaps a tidy is up is all that is required - but it very awkward for beginners to get past a certain level without going through a lot of unnecessary posts...

Don't just tell us you found something that was out of date - give us the link and then the Mods/Admin may update it. Nobody has time to trawl the forums looking for deprecated code, but if you find some then let us know!
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-26
Thanks Ian,

I will do that in future...

G
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-26
Hi MrPLow.

Raising up the subject on its own original snippet topic (imho) might be better for the original coder, or new people interested on it, to check it out and fix/improve it.
It would be an herculian job to clean all code in forum and that would be only a temporary solution.

So I took this fact as a forum ´style´ ;/
Started browser bookmarking the more interesting code posts and arrange it into folders of subject,etc.
I soon found a way to use it in a good fashion and am fine with it nowadays.

This could be hard for today´s new users, but it´s manageable.
I started BASIC on 8bits back in ~86, no forums, no internet, just some magazines and books in foreign language.

The very first book I happily purchased had written horror games for many 8-bit´s basic...alas, in excitement, I didn´t realize my little computer was not in that list. :O
That lead to my very first experience in code outside the manual...convert trs80III/msx/spectrum basic to the tandy color computer basic (many deprecated commands between them). Without knowing english nor basic.

Anyways, the 8bit basic background and the available demos/tutorial, either on GLB and MR.Tatoad´s books, were enough to kick me in GLB.

Back on topic, old code update on the forum happens naturally once in a while. The latest I have seen is the platformer-tutorial. It got a really nice update.

Another subject is that the forum in community driven, so each of us is kind of responsible for what we post, be it a solution to a problem, a new feature or a simple snippet. Sometimes the original poster has no time or will to update some piece. But like stated by others, the logic can be understood most of the cases.

Cheers :good:
ps: joooooiiin uuuuus! and embrace the chaotic nature of the forum! :P



Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-26
I did pretty much the same erico, converting type-in programs in BASIC for other machines into Locomotive BASIC for the Amstrad  CPC. There were always several differences, but the workarounds helped me to gain a deeper understanding of both BASICs. The worst of the bunch was the C64 - that BASIC included weird graphical images that meant nothing to non-Commodore (C64/C16 etc.) owners!



Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Aug-26
C64 Basic it's machine Code Pokes for all sides  :D :D :D, the best basic in 8 bits computer Locomotive, in any manual you take about Amstrad, thay said , better than computer too much expensive like IBM "PC", I learn a lot of little thing whit Amstrad and they works in GLbasic JAAJJ after 30 years... But the manual of Amstrad I don't understand too much things well I'm only 6 years old, but I rembenber something like put -"list #8 and the printer... PORT?¿ (WTF port, I only know "El puerto de Barcelona" whit the boats CHUUUU-CHUUUU  :D :D :D)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-26
LOL.

The manual that came with the Amstrad is probably the best programming manual I have ever seen. It documented absolutely everything and very clearly. It is still a wonder to behold. It's available as a free .PDF from a number of places.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Aug-26
Yes Ian now I say yes it's perfect, but for a child whit 6 years old I don't understood a lot of things, and you have in mind the translation if was very correct or not , I doubt  in 80's in Spain were people whit high skills in English.

Now it's easy to understand, and ASM ins't too much complex, only you have to write a lot for anything, and somecases it's really a breakhead make something, but in General it's easy to undestand and very very funny.

Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-26
I understood what you meant, with you being a youngster with a potentially poorly translated manual. But even so, it showed great promise, did it not? A book of delights ;) :P
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-26
The C64 User Manual was rather basic.  However, the Programmers Reference Manual was wonderful - only the RISC OS one was better.

C64's UDG characters provided a cheap and easy way to produce some interesting graphics that other platforms would need to redefined their character set for. although the same thing could also be done on the Commodore too...
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Sod pre-defined characters; UDGs were the way to go. I went through sooooo much graph paper in the 80's! :P
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2013-Aug-27
Quote from: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Sod pre-defined characters; UDGs were the way to go. I went through sooooo much graph paper in the 80's! :P

Same here, W.H. Smiths got a good share of my pocket money  :booze:

Lee
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
Yes, designing UDG's was great fun.

Especially when you forgot to take the computer out of user mode and ended up hanging the machine...  And you hadn't saved the source code... And it was in assembler...
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Strangely, the CPC never had this problem. :P
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
But then it didn't have as much memory :)

Or hardware sprites :)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Aug-27

Strangely, the CPC never had this problem. :P
Jaja it's true CPC never hang, only when the program don't use ESC key , the curious it's you can leave the computer 1 day completly working and don't warm nothing.

But then it didn't have as much memory :)
Or hardware sprites :)

And SID, It's really awesome the things can do the C64, i watch somedays ago the Turrican2, and this can be perfectly an Arcade a bit less powerfull...

Here thanks to Sinclair and Alan Sugar, else in Spaoin the computers was a dream, C64 impossible for the money and MSX I think was a very expensive computer and I think only a few guys have this computer.(Curious in Spain the MSX Scene it's really live , sinclair and CPC nothing  :blink:  :blink:)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Of course the C64 also lacked any colours other than brown too. ;) :P

I loved all the 8bit machines at the time - there were always games that defined each and weren't as good or even available on the others. And luckily, due to having friends with each machine I got to sample a great many of them. Happy days :)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
On the contrary, the C64 had many vibrant colours.  A colour output device was expected as standard :)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-27
I wondered about the c64´s brown a while ago.
A bit way off topic, but I read the hardware designer chose those colors because he thought they were fine, just like that.

For me, it feels more like the c64 gfx was designed attempting to make it easier towards drawing more realistic humans (skin wise).
But yeah, there are a lot of browns there, it makes it easy to spot a c64 pic. ;)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ruidesco on 2013-Aug-27
Quote from: erico on 2013-Aug-27A bit way off topic, but I read the hardware designer chose those colors because he thought they were fine, just like that.
Indeed, it was exactly like that. The guy just liked browns and blues a lot.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Quote from: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
On the contrary, the C64 had many vibrant colours.  A colour output device was expected as standard :)
Now, we all know that's not true. "Vibrant" is definitely not in the C64's dictionary.  ;) :P
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
(http://www.jbcomputersolutions.com/misc/c64colours.jpg)

It does a pretty good approximation and none are tinted green :)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Not vibrant though, are they.

CPC colours aren't tinted green either. The colour output depends on the monitor used. The C64 would be monochrome on a black & white tv. Same difference.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-27
Yep, there is a lot of browns and toned down colors on c64.
Talking about vibrant, I´d expect some strong red or yellow.

The CPC on the other hand, has only vibrant colors available (and lots of greens).
That makes for an horror show if you want to shade something.

Both do interesting and amazing results.

By composition you can make the c64 display vibrant colors and the same you can do on cpc to shade stuff.

edit: that is , keeping the display tech off the talk. Samsung´s nowadays tech displays extreme alien colors compared to a standard lcd monitor.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Yeah, subtlety and shading wasn't the CPC's strong point, but then games back then weren't particularly subtle. I still prefer the vibrant CPC or even duller C64 colours to the teals and oranges of most games today. I still love the Speccy monochrome games for their style and substance over ability though. And colour clash creates some wonderful pop-art  imagery.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
Here is a quick little thing I knocked up...

Spectrums were good for 3D stuff - probably their only advantage :)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-27
Agree with Ian, the color clash has its own charm.
I even love the coco color clash bizarreness when on TV and the blue/green boot thing.

I do prefer the art that takes its hardware capabilities as a tool, instead of trying to mimic full color.
Same as 3d, the ones going for photorealism does not interest me.

Mr.T, nice snippet!
If ran on a window inside windows it won´t cause much effect as if it were ran fullscreen.
In full screen, our eyes adapt and vibrant colors are there. :good:
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
How about this for a bit of awesome - http://symlink.dk/projects/c64key/

Much better than today's crap keyboards

:)

[EDIT] MrT - not heard that music in years. brings back many fond memories.  Commando IIRC. :good:
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-27
It sure is! specially compared to touch keyboard.

I like the blocky hard keys, they feel safe and you can code while looking at other stuff (a second monitor with a manual etc).
Makes it great to multitask while writing.

It does remind me of old Borroughs terminals same way...
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: spacefractal on 2013-Aug-27
look like this thread turned into offtype about old computers.... which is nothing wrong about that.

Spectrum, CPC and C64 have each thier charm, which is depend which people you talk to.

For me, im really liked the sound chip on the C64 very much, and also used Amiga up to Windows 95 came to market. So im was a Commodore man in the young days (hence my current game is a C64 remake).

One of the fun comparisons site is that one:
http://www.retro-sanctuary.com/Comparisons%20Main.html
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Quote
One of the fun comparisons site is that one:
http://www.retro-sanctuary.com/Comparisons%20Main.html

Except that some of the images are wrong: Look at Midnight Resistance - http://www.retro-sanctuary.com/comparisons%20-%20Midnight%20Resistance.html  - The Speccy and Amstrad CPC are swapped.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
Quote from: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
How about this for a bit of awesome - http://symlink.dk/projects/c64key/

Much better than today's crap keyboards

:)

[EDIT] MrT - not heard that music in years. brings back many fond memories.  Commando IIRC. :good:
Yes, one of my favourite tunes!
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: spacefractal on 2013-Aug-27
Quote from: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
Quote
One of the fun comparisons site is that one:
http://www.retro-sanctuary.com/Comparisons%20Main.html

Except that some of the images are wrong: Look at Midnight Resistance - http://www.retro-sanctuary.com/comparisons%20-%20Midnight%20Resistance.html  - The Speccy and Amstrad CPC are swapped.

just a "spelling error". Its more title over images that got swapped.... not images its self. Cybernoid is also a great example how a game should been done and play nice on all computer platforms.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-27
Quote
Quote from: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
Quote from: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
How about this for a bit of awesome - http://symlink.dk/projects/c64key/

Much better than today's crap keyboards

:)

[EDIT] MrT - not heard that music in years. brings back many fond memories.  Commando IIRC. :good:
Yes, one of my favourite tunes!
:D :D
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Aug-27
For vibrant colors in Commodore use the old trick, up the contrast and brightness on your TV  :D :D better if it's old TV..

Seriously I think C64 have a simple mod, changing the RGB output resistors, I'm not sure but I think I read something about this.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-27
One of my favourite C64 games was Mayhem in Monsterland :



And this is a video of my previous program :

Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: erico on 2013-Aug-27
Nice!
The dark & clear color´s way, used on it are superb!
Exactly what I meant for composition. Yellow really strikes out on that game!
I bet much more on the real tech.
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-28
Quote from: Ian Price on 2013-Aug-27
How about this for a bit of awesome - http://symlink.dk/projects/c64key/

Much better than today's crap keyboards

:)

[EDIT] MrT - not heard that music in years. brings back many fond memories.  Commando IIRC. :good:

I LIKE it!
I myself have a noppochoc mini  84-key and 102- DAS Keyboard --- both are amazing and I would recommend them anyone that loves the clicking mech keys...

http://www.daskeyboard.com/product/model-s-professional/

Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: kanonet on 2013-Aug-28
Me lol MrPlow that site you linked automatically recognises that im from germany and redirects me to its german subpage - which for sure was auto translated, cause its such a bad german, totally pointless texts. :D
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-28
Slight variation :



The dual colour loading system was more prevent on the Spectrum and Amstrad than the C64 - it wasn't until around half way though it's life that the Commodore started copying it...
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: Slydog on 2013-Aug-28
I can vouch for the DAS keyboard, they are truly awesome, and great quality and feel.
I opted for the 'Ultimate' model, that has no lettering on the keys, because, hey, I'm awesome . . . so I thought!

It is fine for regular programming / typing, as I never look at the keyboard, but when you're doing other things and something prompts you to enter a word or password, and your fingers aren't centered in the 'home row' position, then hunting and pecking for a certain key amongst a grid of blank keys is somewhat of a pain!  Still, great keyboard.

http://www.daskeyboard.com/product/model-s-ultimate/ (http://www.daskeyboard.com/product/model-s-ultimate/)

After seeing some C64 screens from these posts, I never realized how brown and dull the colours actually were.  As a kid I didn't think anything at the time, as I had no comparison.  Anybody remember programming a coloured sprite on the C64?  You would loose half of your horizontal sprite resolution (each pixel was two pixels wide).  And you could only choose between four colours. (Two bits).  Arg, and trying to move the sprite passed the 256 pixel barrier (1 byte)!  You had to set another bit somewhere to tell it you're on the other side now, such a pain when you're a kid learning to program! (But so rewarding when it works smoothly for the first time!)
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Aug-28
It was great fun programming the C64 - even better in assembler!
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: MrPlow on 2013-Aug-28
Love the music on that vid - trying to make a tune myself for my new game....which relevantly is a retro remake...
Title: Re: Forum confusion...
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2013-Aug-28
To successfully program the C64 in Basic, with regards to using gfx/sound/sprites etc required remembering memory addresses more than Basic commands with their syntax  :D.

True, assembly was a dream on the C64 & most of all of the above issues using gfx etc with Basic never came into play.

Lee