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Main forum => Off Topic => Topic started by: erico on 2013-Dec-11

Title: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2013-Dec-11
Here I´m not sure it is legal to publish these links, but I think there should not be any harm done.

Long time ago in a galaxy far away, I bought the whole encyclopedia and even got it into hard official cover. I think I was 11 or 12.
These magazines were great and helped me a bunch into figuring out BASIC for our little 8-bit computers (tandy color computer was my thing).

There are a lot of fundamentals going in there, could provide a great read.
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/magazines/input/input.htm

A lot of those info of basic can be used nowadays, enjoy! <3

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Dec-11
 :nw: :nw:Thanks Erico I don't think it's illegal.
This kind of Magazine are absolutely amazing, in Spain was Microhobby, a lot of drawings and pictures, they make you travel with your imagination thru those pages...
Thanks I bookmarked the Web.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2013-Dec-11
This one, I have heartily collected every single issue, it was one of the only source of computer knowledge way back on the days.
The art department  into those issues were really cool, they really blew up my imagination. I have great found memories of those.
Got me into a bit of assembler too :)

edit: we got a portuguese/brasilian translation here, I never knew they were English, it is a new experience to savour them into their original flavor.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Dec-11
I used to get it quite regularly...  Some of the programs were quite handy
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2013-Dec-11
I collected the full set when they came out & remember waiting impatiently for the next issue  :D

Sadly they got severely water damaged & had to be thrown away but I did manage to get another full set on ebay a few years back. If I remember rightly the postage cost more than what I won the auction for lol.

Lee
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Dec-11
I remember it being available and wanting it, but it didn't support CPC so I never got it. I'm sure there's still plenty of tricks and ideas in them to help out GLB noobs and not so noobs ;)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Dec-11
The Dragon 32 BASIC was always interesting to look at - and laugh at too :)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Dec-11
The Dragon 32 BASIC was always interesting to look at - and laugh at too :)
Why? Was it very different as a BASIC language?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Dec-11
I always listen the Amstrad Basic was the better of all 8 bits Computers (MSX I don't know nothing), but seems Locomotive Basic was really powerfull a bit slowly... But looking c64 very advanced than another machines it's have a really complex basic.. Poke and Peeks in all...

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2013-Dec-11
Msx basic was quite nice, it had some weird drawing commands.

The thing I most envied on msx from my cocoII point of view, was editing the code. You can move your cursor around freely with arrows and editing a line was a simple matter of moving the cursor over it, changing and hitting enter...back on the coco we had to call edit line# to make changes, it annoyed me a little I could not see the rest of the code around it.

I also think msx, iirc, had some sprite commands too, cocoII had get and put, but it was a tough thing to use.

One thing though, is that most of these basics were interchangeable with little changes (not the peek and poke though  =D), so I think they could pretty much run on a CPC.

Lots of LET command all around looks a bit weird these days :)

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2013-Dec-11
The Dragon 32 BASIC was always interesting to look at - and laugh at too :)
Why? Was it very different as a BASIC language?
Unlike other basics, where you could specify X & Y coordinates for text, the Dragon was somewhat different in that you could only position text based on the offset from the top-left of the screen.

And everything was green... :P

However, saying that it did have a much newer processor than, say the C64, but unfortuately as its graphical capabilities were limited, it didn't help.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Dec-11
I always listen the Amstrad Basic was the better of all 8 bits Computers (MSX I don't know nothing), but seems Locomotive Basic was really powerfull a bit slowly... But looking c64 very advanced than another machines it's have a really complex basic.. Poke and Peeks in all...
Locomotive BASIC (CPC BASIC) had POKE & PEEK etc. but was, as you said slow (good enough for simple games, but not much more). A shame really, as it was incredibly well documented and powerful.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2013-Dec-11
Yes this Basic was Slow, but Ian what machine can use Basic for make Serious Games... I know about Blitz Basic and another I discovered these days , Basic Compiled, but I ear isn't enoutgh for make Games... In Amiga I read about with Blitz Basic people did some very goods games, but we are Speaking about the Best Machine in all the times*** , today the good thing it's about the new Developments, like "churrera Mojon Twins" CCZ80 Compiler (Very easy) or the Boriel Basic Compiler, they are Cross Compilers and you can do games for MSX,CPC and ZX at once ... I'm sure we win more money than in APPStore  :D :D :D

***Sorry for a bit of Spam
For Amiga Users at today, we have a new and I think the only one Accelerator for A500, don't is too much expensive about 80Euros and works very fine... you can add A1200 and 2000 cards in the free Slots. 
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2013-Dec-11
Quote
Yes this Basic was Slow, but Ian what machine can use Basic for make Serious Games...
Surprisingly, there were quite a few 8bit computer games made with BASIC that were actually fairly successful. Some magazine listings for the CPC were in BASIC and were actually very good (and not just for the time) - they were responsible for me getting into coding way back in 1984.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Jan-22
OMG! I had all these mags from 1 to 10 for definite...after that cant remember...

The 8-bit football managers of old were frequently done in BASIC and were very popular...
;-)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Jan-23
The Dragon 32 BASIC was always interesting to look at - and laugh at too :)
Why? Was it very different as a BASIC language?
Unlike other basics, where you could specify X & Y coordinates for text, the Dragon was somewhat different in that you could only position text based on the offset from the top-left of the screen.

And everything was green... :P

However, saying that it did have a much newer processor than, say the C64, but unfortuately as its graphical capabilities were limited, it didn't help.

I had a Coco and when I saw my friend Spectrum for the first time I giggled at the novelty of the size and function one key commands.  :whistle:

Microsoft Basic is Coco Basic which is Dragon32. The text mode could have green/orange although there are programs that can use the graphics modes.  :P
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-Jan-24
About the relative Position in Amstrad Basic you can do too... Well the Amstrad Basic I think can do anything, when I look sometimes and I "compare" with GLBasic it's awesome the lot of things have the Locomotive Basic... the great fail was the horrible slow was.

About the green Screen, really I don't understand how I know whats happends in the screen, and really I finished some games..  =D =D
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-24
Indeed. Speed was the only thing that let Locomotive/CPC Basic down.

I started with a green screen and then went to a colour one after my CPC went bang. Green was OK for some games, but the colour screen was infinitely better.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-Jan-24
Yes Ian I rebember the first time I watch the CPC in color, concretly the 6128 with Gryzor (I think one of the best games in CPC), realy the load Screen it's today awesome.

If the Sincalir Spectrum was more colors, I think was superior then CPC, if you play some games practically always the games are more playable than Amstrad, are more quick to play...

PS: I have to search a technical comparision between C64 and Sinclair Spectrum... seems don't have a long distance between them, with a some changes seems Spectrum can be more powerfull than a C64, I don't want say make a mood to the Sinclair, but seems the Custom Chips except the sound, don't are extremely powerfull... (those are words of a Electronic engineer don't mine)

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-24
Gryzor and Renegade were two of my fave games on CPC, both by the same team and were totally awesome when played with the speech synth (for loud stereo music without crackle or hiss) and 64K RAM expansion from DK'Tronics. Both games became single load (rather than multi) and had additional music and sfx.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-24
On the Amstrad (on which I used to play on a friends), there was a game where you had to push blocks onto a conveyor belt - I can't remember the name of it though.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-24
Can you explain a bit more - I had over 400 games on the Amstrad BITD, so chances are I had it.

Not Panic Dizzy by any chance?

(http://www.yolkfolk.com/media/images/gallery/PanicDizzyRemake2.PNG)

or klax

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_Yvn9RMtJBk/T_hci-sgTAI/AAAAAAAAJCk/m411MUwdqDM/s1600/arcade.png)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-24
No, there was a conveyor along the bottom and you had a chap to push these boxes onto it - it was a single screen 2D game.

Cant remember anything else unfortunately.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Jan-24
...a bit late but...coco was not all about green! :rant:

There was a poke that changed it to brown/amber! :P
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-26
No, there was a conveyor along the bottom and you had a chap to push these boxes onto it - it was a single screen 2D game.

Cant remember anything else unfortunately.

This might help you to remember - http://www.pressplaythenanykey.com/stuff/the_amstrad_cpc_screenshot_catalog_2010_01.pdf it's a screenshot catalogue of all known Amstrad CPC games (dated 2010). There are some missing entries that I remember and the screenies aren't always the best for each game, but you might be able to find the game you were looking for. If you do, please let me know :)

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-Jan-26
Jeje the DOC are from a friends of Amstrad here in Spain, I think the only Forum alive about Amstrad, it's extrange here the Amstrad had a lot of sells, but the people only make things for Spectrum, and curiosly for MSX, have a lot scene this last... in Spain MSX don't sell too much.

The problem of Amstrad it's don't have to much new Hardware, the only powerfull I look it's the floppy emulator of Lorahtek, works in a lot of ols system, included CNC for make piezes of cars and those things.

About the game says MrT really I don't know, basically I always buy games of Spanish people, or OCEAN or IMAGINE, if the cover put this the game will be excellent, U.S Gold really I only rebember Bruce Lee, very bad graphics, but awesome funny... and Loriciels and Titus I hate them.. sorry for the Frenchs Friend of the forum...

Ian I don't know if you touch at today you CPC, but if you find Laser Basic, you can do in Basic very powerfull things, it's the Locomotive Basic but compiled, and runs very very faster... it's very cool watch how the amstrad put the lines of code and says "Compile"... I forget too much cool things in those times...
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-26
I used to use LASER Basic a lot BITD (and LASER compiler). made many small games with it :)

Funny enough I was thinking about LASER Basic earlier today - it might be cool to see AquaVenture running on the CPC.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-27
Alas, despite looking twice (and also on Games Database), I couldn't find it.  I had though it was by either Mastertronic or Amsoft, but no appropriate games were found there).
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-27
There are definitely gaps in both databases - I remember mentioning several games that I remembered not being on them when I first looked at them a few years ago, but I can't remember any off the top of my head right now.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-27
Yes, I think I spotted a fair few that were should have been there (although I did find one that I had forgotten about when I had the C64) :)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-27
It's great looking through catalogues like that - brings back so many memories about the games you played and the ones you wanted. It also shows games that you never knew about, but wish you did.

:)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Jan-27
Exactly, it is also super inspiring. :good:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-27
Exactly, it is also super inspiring. :good:
It is - I saw one game on there that I'd never heard about and now want to remake it for a modern audience. Lots to do first, but I'll definitely be keeping it in mind.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-27
It wouldn't be "Electro Freddy" that Mr. T is referring about would it?

http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=795 (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=795)

(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=795&slot=2&part=A&type=.png)

Lee
 
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Jan-27
It certainly looks like it could be. YouTube vids shows a conveyor at the bottom of the screen.

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-27
Was a lucky Google search for "Amstrad CPC conveyor belt boxes game" if it is the right game  :D

Lee
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-27
It does look like the right one - I only every played the game in shades of green :)

Well done for finding it.   :nw:

Now, how are you on Atari ST PD game finding ? :)

Those catalogues are indeed good - especially for ideas!
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-27
Now, how are you on Atari ST PD game finding ? :)

Better than average. I seem to have a knack of finding info etc on 8bit/16bit software (including PD), shame I don't have so much luck on finding what I want on more current systems/architectures  :D.

What are you after?, I will have a rummage

Lee

edit:
Greenscreen version may jog your memory  =D
(http://www.cpc-power.com/extra_lire_fichier.php?extra=cpcold&fiche=795&slot=4&part=A&type=.png&green=1)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-27
Ah - just found it.  It's called World Conquest (a turn-based, multi-player strategy game, which had one slight flaw : It was very buggy) :



Been wondering about this for years :)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-27
Found it in my collection & just fired it up. Not one I got round to playing tbh, but then again although I had an ST (or few) I used it mainly for music & done everything else on my Amigas.

Lee
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-27
It could have been a good game, if it had been stable.

The only  thing I would like to know is if my Walker II game ever reached the PD house I sent it too - unfortunately it'll be something I will never know...
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-28
It could have been a good game, if it had been stable.

The only  thing I would like to know is if my Walker II game ever reached the PD house I sent it too - unfortunately it'll be something I will never know...

I presume you mean this
Quote
Walker2    ^ This is by Nicholas Kingsley and seems like a good game.
                   Lots of instructions, but he forgets to mention exactly
                   what you're trying to do and how you do it!

from http://www.apdl.co.uk/library/games.txt (http://www.apdl.co.uk/library/games.txt)

Lee

BTW hope you have a good 40th Birthday  :booze: :booze: :booze:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-28
That was the Archimedies version - still got the full page scan of that :)

It is (so far) the first and only review of one of my games...
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Jan-28
Ahh the old Public Domain!! I had about 1000 PD disks for  Amiga back in the day...I used to sell copies by mail order...lol!

It does look like the right one - I only every played the game in shades of green :)

Well done for finding it.   :nw:

Now, how are you on Atari ST PD game finding ? :)

Those catalogues are indeed good - especially for ideas!
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-28
I used to get a lot from the BinaryZone PD place for my C64 (and sent my games to there as well) - the person running it was efficient.

My ones are available at gamebase64.com (http://gamebase64.com) now

Never bother with the Amiga nor the Archimedes (as the internet had arrived :) )
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Jan-29
Amigas were my favourite home comp...Games as good, and better than ones in the Arcades.

So if thats true you never got to Amiga Classics "Another World" / "Kick Off 2" / "Elite:Frontier"  ... except maybe on Emu?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-29
I made the mistake of getting an A600...
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Jan-29
Yeah, compatibility problems with lots of games...unless you had the right boot-fix disks...

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrTAToad on 2014-Jan-29
Yes - it was annoying...
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-29
While I do own a few Amigas (along with a lot of other retro 8/16/32bit computers) they are now stored away with my collection as the state of emulation is pretty much spot on.

Funnily enough when I need to create bitmaps like sprites etc chances are I will use DPaint/PPaint in WinUAE due to the many years of using them & familiarity with those respective programs. I have tried & still occasionally use Grafx2 on the PC which was inspired by DPaint but it just somehow lacks the intuitive feel etc, although that may be down to me & my experience.

The Amiga/ST/Archimedes & almost all the computers that came before them, as well as PC's in the 256 colour VGA days, had a wealth of tools for dealing with pixel pushing which to me seems lacking with current software. Granted they are available if you look hard enough but they either lack features or are not cheap.

I have to say the above is just my personal opinion & there is more than likely some great tools available that I have yet to come across but what I currently use works for me & that is what counts, everyone should have a system that works well for them as what suits one doesn't mean it would suit another.

Anything beats going back to graph paper & calculating the hex/dec value of each line etc  :D

Lee
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Jan-29
Brilliance was pretty good too, and It was my package of choice through the final era of the amiga.

One thing you can´t quite emulate from the amiga, is the smoothness of the sprite movement by the 60/50hz + fields resolution.
You could notice it on the mouse pointer. Every other computer felt jerky compared to it.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Jan-29
Amiga was a beast for digital art!
Deluxe Paint III & IV were great.

Something similar...for PC?
https://code.google.com/p/grafx2/ (https://code.google.com/p/grafx2/)

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-Jan-29
Mistake Mr-T it's the best solution today... you can add a Hard Drive very cheaper and put all the Amiga Game into it, and you can expand very easy...

I like more the chase of the Amiga500 but really this machine it's an Inferno for add things, connect to internet or have a hard drive***

***This now it's more easy and not too much expensive with the AKA500, it's an acelerator with 2Mb of Ram and an SD hard drive.

About incompatibilities I will comment my Retro-Forum but I think this problem have solution.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-29
@ Mentalthink : I think Mr.T was referring to the early days of the A600 in which yes there was some compatibility problems with older software (same problem that the A500+ suffered along with the A1200). Not only that the lack of numeric pad cut off the use of some games that made use of it.

@MrPlow : I did mention grafx2 in my previous post & like I said while it says its a tribute/inspired by Dpaint there's just something about it that doesn't feel quite right to me. Not a fault of the program but more a personal "Me" thing  :D

Lee
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Jan-29
My last Amiga was A1200 i had a whopping 20mb harddrive (2.5") and max RAM expansion...my boot-fixes would allow to switch it all off to run certain games.... so in main I was happy with that machine!

Some 1200 games made good use of the AGA capabilities...

Doh! Apologies Lee, I missed that reference... :blink:
I had a go and its a bit clunky and awkward to use...I currently do just about all my stuff in fireworks 8  and bits in Inkscape.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: fuzzy70 on 2014-Jan-29
Funnily enough I use Fireworks as well, because it's designed for web graphics it handles bitmaps far more efficiently than Photoshop etc (which to be fair are more geared to photo editing & so on). I love the slice tools, symbols & animation side of things which combined with styles allows you to generate consistency for whatever you are working on.

I use CS6 as I have the Adobe Suite but even older versions are more than capable & well worth a purchase. I think you should be able to pick up an older version for very little money & it might even be cheaper than some of the current bitmap tools available but with a lot more powerful toolset.

Lee
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-Jan-30
Thanks Fuzzy the regulars verbs in English sometime confuse me...

In fact Amiga was and It's the best machine of the computer systems at least for me... this was the really quantum leap not the Sinclair QL... really Commodore was a bit stupid making the Marketing of the Amiga, I ear really was Commodore who kills the Amiga.

At least we enjoy this machines, today all are PC and awesome graphics don't leave to the imagination fly
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-20
I remember begging and borrowing for an Amiga 500 to buy it as soon as I could. The whole era felt rushed and pressured by PCs later but it was fantastic. Deluxe paint animations were so cool.  :-[

Here (attached image) is my Coco system that I compiled in the past year. It's easy to use the mobile phone as an audio player for games but I have had it running on Drivewire. Now I'm experimentally wondering of putting a Raspberry Pi or Arudino in the thermal printer.  :whistle:

Hey Erico, I even found that vary rare Maths Invaders that I mentioned I was on the hunt for but now but haven't found a suitable cassette player.  ;)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-20
Now that is a beautiful site!

...
Here (attached image) is my Coco system that I compiled in the past year. It's easy to use the mobile phone as an audio player for games but I have had it running on Drivewire. Now I'm experimentally wondering of putting a Raspberry Pi or Arudino in the thermal printer.  :whistle:
...
Using the phone as an audio deck?? :o

You found that game!? Great! I see you did in an audio cassete form. I have 4 tape desks here but I´m sure they need work on the head.
Better make a digital backup of that as fast as possible! :good:

Gee, on the coco II thing I have lately been thinking so much of chr set to make games.
One thing that is taking my current 320x240 game to ever finish is soo much the visual and sound reaches... even at that res they take a lot of time.
I must get back to hard restrictions. Back on the days I´d do a game quite quick using just letters.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-20
Yeah. A phone, ipod, mp3, whatever to play lots of converted .wav from .cas and .rom files.

I'd like to see your coco work. There are a few small programs that I would like to keep working on. For example, here is a tool in GLB for automatically creating adventure screen location to suit four color coco.

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-Apr-20
Jeje a coco computer, this was a modification of Sinclair Spectrum or it's a completly different Computer?¿, I like to see working too.
I'm not sure if for COCO you have new developments in Hard, for Spectrum it's awesome the new soft and Hard appears...

Ahh!!! I forget to put in the forum , I know a lof of people perhaps have an Amiga in house... If you are interested in Ebay you can buy a simple Floppy device, this works with an USB key, you can replace your old floppy for this, and you can have all the games and App in this Floppy-USB.

I think here are the instructions in English... I read in Spanish forum ins't coplex, you only have to Flash the Firmware of the Floppy and connect to your amiga.

http://cortexamigafloppydrive.wordpress.com/

Works 100%, in the Spanish Retro forum a few people have got working yet.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Apr-20
I loved adventure games BITD - played through loads (and got stuck in plenty more too!), so that screenie looks great to me :)

The Coco (or TI?) wasn't available in the UK as far as I'm aware; listening to others talk about it it seems like we missed out - seems to be a well loved machine.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-20
One of my friends had a speccy whilst I had a coco and at least that had more colors.

The coco alternative in the UK is the dragon, which has many more games I have yet to try.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Apr-20
My wife had a Dragon BITD - she loved a game called "Cuthbert Goes Walkabout"
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: spacefractal on 2014-Apr-20
Im had a Amiga 500 and a Amiga Cd32 (wth SX-1 box), which im still have (but have no clue its still works throught). Yes, there was some game compatible, but those got fixed later with WHD-Load and such harddrive installers. Im do thinks Commodore did created too many similar specs, which cause Commodore to crash. The sound was example newer updated. Howover its a good machine anyway and liked its very much (yes im did have C64 too eailer of course, which was that machine im did to hear very much computer music, due its excellent sid chip).

Also Greedy Mouse was based on Mouse Runner, im created in AMOS for many years ago for Amiga, which is again based on the BBC game, XOR. Its was the Amiga version of XOR that inspirated my originally since then.

Im do remember the Input Magazines in Denmark was called "Run", and did have the fun to code them in :-D.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-21
Yeah. A phone, ipod, mp3, whatever to play lots of converted .wav from .cas and .rom files.

I'd like to see your coco work. There are a few small programs that I would like to keep working on. For example, here is a tool in GLB for automatically creating adventure screen location to suit four color coco.

Hehe really funky the sound solution!

Unfortunantly, I have no coco work around anymore. My transition from coco II to amiga was a bit killer and I left behind my tapes  :(
I was too young and dumb not to keep them. At the time I saw no reason since I could not emulate the coco on the amiga at the time.
Now on my amiga days to PC, I kept most of my games and codes and also an image of my hd and my original processor and kickstart :)

Back on the coco, there I didn´t much finished a game. The most notable work I did I recall perfectly and are not too hard to recode again:

There was a karate game done in CHR set. Pretty unfinished.
An alien II game in CHR ASCII set, just the last scene, pretty lame game.
A death start tunnel game in CHR running from up do down using the print scroll. This was the most finished game, sporting 3 stages.
The avocado game I´m remaking, this was graphical but I blew the memory really quick.
A ninja jiraya game in graphics too, blew memory after 4 or 5 hero´s sprite.
Many tron lightcycle games in graphics with a few twists and infamous circular explosions.
A platformer defend/construct the castle against ravage dogs in CHR.

And a bunch more, some really bad coded since the loop concept escaped me on the very beguinning of my code ´career´.

I could remake them on an emulator, but I prefer to take the more notable attempts into GLB.

Downloaded you tool, will check it out later, looks really cool from the screen shots!
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-22
Gave a quick go on the app, exe wise.

Really good mapping and visualizing stuff.
Made me wonder about the ability to look NSEW on each room, which would take us to the daggorath approach.
I recall "Escape 2012" and "Major Istar" were already able to fake half that.
Would it be best a single image approach to a room or a multiple one? I wonder.

I devised a low gfx  punt into something similar to "Hired Guns" as it depicts 3d in upper and low level greatly other then the 2d fit.

By far, what you have is really great!
One awesome thing, is that I can use an emulator to draw in COCO MAX with my wacom tablet, and I can use another program for a possible layer overlay. :good:
We have to extend the capabilities of coco uh?

PS:. Your GFX going in app on the lower right is a bit strange going.

edit: On the structure designed, are you into developing an adventure?

edit2: I made single screens adventure games in paper books just couse I could not code enough back then, can you believe it?  :giveup:
Some even required me as a ´dungeon master´ to understand the players parser :x
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-22
Thanks for having a look at the app. :) I really started with just wanting to convert graphics but got sick of converting existing images withing the constraints.

The idea is like Dungeons Of Daggorath except the backgrounds are pre-drawn. In effect, the screens on the lower right are mode 3 128x96 4 colour, but could be used for other systems palettes, and are intended to be saved on to a floppy. My first adventure games had every scene drawn in code but I figure now that the advantage is more disk space to store backgrounds and sprites. An ideal scenario is a 255 level layout like Atari Pitfall where the scenes are based on a seed.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2014-Apr-24
Just got my Speccy Emulator ZXDS working on my DS Lite... class! A Pocket Spectrum!
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-26
...I really started with just wanting to convert graphics but got sick of converting existing images withing the constraints...

Yep, a really horrible point, how can it be there is no converter? Worst of all, coco II would actually display differently everywhere it was presented worldwide. Maybe some 5 sets? Could it be achieved a one set into a macro photoshop? Or maybe a converter like Gernot did for c64 images in GLB?
They would be graphical only not the coco format, and then what to do to get it into the coco?

Why the heck did we choose the most alien bizzare computer to start with? :rant: other 8bit users have no idead of what a real man color clash is all about :(  :D

I still believe the best way to coco pictures is to mix an emulator with a some up to date tech, like in the appended picture.
And if a person has to pixel art into the likes of coco max II, then we are in for a F**k as that is a herculian task :noggin:
At least we can save the image in a native format... ;)

 
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-26
For PAL, high res coco games has no red and blue.

PMODE4 = 256x192, 4 colour, artifact black, white, red/orange, blue (NTSC)

PMODE3 = 128x96, 4 colours green, red, blue, yellow or white, orange, cyan, lime

As there is a limit to the colours so a pattern is required to increase shading like you have with the cocomax examples. This is something that I have tried although I wasn't intending an image converter. I found that converting with photoshop can work with experimenting with dithering and palette changes but then the resolution is a challenge. The Simpson characters convert well though. :)

 ;)

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-26
so you mean as for pmode 3 this.... (I never liked it much, more color, but weird ones)
At least more control.

but doing it on photoshop, how can you get it into a coco format later?
As for dithering, there is a pixel art thread I posted that can be adapted to it.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-26
In photoshop I resize and image, then convert it to 4 indexed colours. There the I create a some palettes for each screen mode. What is needed is dithering palette rather than color. Perhaps we should work on a converter then?  :S
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-26
What?? be a man and use DDA! :D (external joke)
Did you take a look on that pixel art thread?
This link is the thing:
http://danfessler.com/blog/hd-index-painting-in-photoshop

Also, resolution should not be a limit. ;) ...but a dádiva!

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-26
I have been thinking about how to convert images...

PMODE3 at least has no artifact, but its colors all correspond to the same grey and shade can only be consider if you take the blue for dark and yellow for light for example.
Still, it is hard to place the red and green (together) but in a 3 colors approach it may work out or maybe red or green stands for an outline/specular.

There could be a couple approaches this way:
1- transform original image (OI) pallete to fit the weird coco one and then reduce image.
2- transform OI into shades of BW and assign color and degradee as fit.

Hard stuff, it feels easier to trace the image from scratch (or a layer). :rant: 
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-26
It kind of works, but still requires a lot of hand made finalization to actually look proper, in special, outlines.
Since the resolution is small, it is probably better/faster to just do it all by hand and trace over a reduced image.

edit: 2x image for better reading, there is no finalization here, just conversion.
edit2: there is a bit of pre-work on cleaning up, here a break down:
.Desaturate image
.Work levels to achieve a nice strong contrast, specially on needed areas, there must be pure black and pure white
.Posterize to 7 levels of B/W
.Reduce size
.Adjust some bad looking areas
.With the magic wand non-contiguous, change the respective gray colors to the yellow, yellow+green, green, green+red, red, red+blue,blue. (light to dark)
.Fix what looks weird (which I didn´t)

I used only 1 level of dither, the 1010 kind, I´m not sure adding up more 6 in between dithered colors would come up with anything good at this resolution.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-26
Here another example.

This time, I used Dan Fessler´s approach to pixel art+dither, tunned a few things to match the coco II colors and voila...a converter with extensive controls and as many dithers or none as you may need. I think this might be the best way to paint coco II pmode 3 style.

Here goes some examples output and the photoshop file you need, use the IMAGE layer to put your stuff and tune with the others.

You might wonder why do I go about all this bother...I´m hoping to put up a masters degree and want to work with art from ancient computers done with today´s tech. :whistle:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-27
I managed to make a pmode 4 conversion too, it works visually, but I doubt the core image would come up with colors on a real coco, would have to test, but I have no idea how to load an image of today´s standard into coco.

The color clash was not hard at all to deal, in fact, it was super manageable.
I changed my mind about this artifacts, I thing the likes of spectrum or amstrad limits of colors per chunk and so on would prove much harder to reproduce and respect using today´s tools.

Here a set of images quickly converted to pmode4, would be nice if we had shadow of the beast back then uh? :)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-27
Nice job on the conversions and that is what I was experimenting with until I did realize that tracing would suit, thus the creation of the adventure room auto mapper.

Similarly, here is a C64 image converter.
http://c64.superdefault.com/
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-27
Yep, the conversion works fine if done in blocks, but tracing/hand pixeling is always waiting at the end, can´t escape that.
Nice c64 conversion site! :good:

If you are tracing stuff on your pc using whatever program or an emulator (which is good to use a wacom tablet), you might be interested on this tool here:
http://drpetter.proboards.com/thread/597/new-free-utility-works-sculptris

It overlays a picture on screen and you set transparency level and works over the desired program/emulator.
Kind of like a layer software program, works wonders and works great over coco max II on mocha.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2014-Apr-27
Quote
I thing the likes of spectrum or amstrad limits of colors per chunk
Amstrad CPC had no colour limits per "chunk." It was however limited to number of colours in Mode only (as per coco), although with careful use of the raster you could change Modes on the fly and have several modes in one screen.

Nice job on the conversions and that is what I was experimenting with until I did realize that tracing would suit, thus the creation of the adventure room auto mapper.

Similarly, here is a C64 image converter.
http://c64.superdefault.com/
Gernot actually did a C64 converter in a GLBasic shader.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-30
Hey Matchy, I seem to figure there is a way to display somehow 16 colors on a COCO on that pmode4 with the artifacts, I can´t seem to find any documentation on such but a few games have it, do you have any idea about it?

Edit: never mind, I just figured it out, it was by using composite output.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-30
I will talk to myself then  :P

aha! 17 colors! ;)

Ps: I guess the only way is by emulation to get to the visuals :(
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-30
Amstrad CPC had no colour limits per "chunk." It was however limited to number of colours in Mode only (as per coco)...

Coco was Black and white in pal(I guess). As for NTSC, It did display some colors, here we had a version called CP-400. Brazil is PAL-M, or at least was back in the days. I have no idea what was done to have it going color,as I recall, TV sets had an ntsc-palm switch, but the games I saw had the colors they intended to have...

The art is actually harder to reproduce by photoshop layers or action. I guess the best is to draw on an emulator with something like the layer program I talked about and copy image. This should work out for the adventure IF likes. Not sure about action games though.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-30
The dither palette is how I imagined obtaining the artifact colors.  :zzz: A better test is to render some modifiable GLB3D objects or scenes to Coco pmode3/4 rather than existing images!  :P
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-30
Sure shot, but I would not know how to program its artifacts in mode 4, it is still a bit bizarre to understand if you take the composite mode.
Probably by a virtual screen, read every pixel and replot the result, or a shader.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-30
For a BASIC game, I am really only interested in pmode3 because of PAL.  ::) I've also tried some semigraphics but it crashes when plotting beyond a location (third of the screen). Have you tried semigraphics conversions? Also, I wonder if I can get 8 colors in basic like in Dragonfire?  ;)
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/113231-dragonfire-trs-80-coco-screenshot-title-screens.png)
Rather than the hassles, I have been wondering if I'd prefer coco3 basic instead.  :noggin:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-Apr-30
I think dragon fire was the only game to pull that trick ever, I read a bit of it, it sounds like an impossible task for basic, maybe with machine language?
Coco3´s basic is newer and the machine is stronger in all aspects. It may be a better choice for adventures?

I enjoy In Quest for the Starloard (took ages to find) on it, and I think that is an adventure done in basic (loading screens from disk).
I also recall a text adventure, something on the lines of noght of the living dead, that took 64kb memory and had a prize up for the winner (do you know this?)

I can´t relate much to the coco3 as I never owned one.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-Apr-30
You should try some coco3 basic! My first texture adventure without graphics was Pyramid but I my first created a graphic adventure was with a scene image in quarter of the screen. I traded my coco2 for a 3 and it was nice for a little while before I got my C64 and Amiga.

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-01
The semi graphics has a too low resolution for anything convertible.
Best to hand draw it, it also has a strange aspect ratio.

I created a convert file similar to those before, but the outputs are pretty bad.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-01
Did you try semigraphics-24?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-01
Semi graphics 24 is how I used to write games in basic using print.
It is a bit hard to convert normal images to it, too low resolution, and again, a set of colors that don´t quite shade.

I think it is best to hand draw it (even though it has a weird aspect ratio) and then manually convert to CHR$.
Here an example image I did sometime ago (in photoshop, but with the proper hardware limits, so it works in a real coco..(not quite)).

EDIT: Street Fighter 2 here would be too clumpy, but a Karateka port this way would be quite possible me thinks...
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Marmor on 2014-May-01
hi,

i likeyour ava2 picture style !


Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-01
That is in "MODE 1 Standard text screen 32 x 16 bytes (512)" which is fine as I still use that and there's some great new MC-10 games which demonstrate sprites with blocks.
Check out "GRAPHIC MODES of the DRAGON and COCO"!
http://archive.worldofdragon.org/index.php?title=Dragon_Notebook

Really cool artwork and I like it so much that we should make a game out of it.  :good:  :PI think I'll have to get the coco tools out then.  :D
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-01
Thanks Marmor, I once in a while dwell into drawing with the limitations of old hardware(whenever I can simulate such on PC or using emulation with a wacom tablet and tracing with the prior said tool).
There is something beautifully magic for me into those horrendous side effects, color and attribute clashes.

Most possibly, because I was alive at the time and thrilled at the very possibility to have a screen with whatever color, let alone when we were able to actually choose colors at all... :D

Yep Matchy, that would be mode 1, but I´m cheating there as 32x16 quad blocks of 2 colors equals 64x32 actual pixels.
In my image, there are blocks with more then 2 colors, which is not quite possible.

Back in the days, with basic and me as a coder, it was either a static screen with clear background where "print CHR" moved about, or I used the natural screen scroll when printing over the bottom. All my shooters were upside down! :D :D :D

But Like I said,  karateka would quite fit the restrictions of basic in this mode.
It might be a bit slow, but hey! We have the speed poke for that! ;)

If all goes fine around here, I´d hope to code GLB games with those weird graphics. I still don´t know much how to, but I have an idea for a start.
If you are willing to strike a coco 2 genuine game, I could give a hand on those blocks, just keep in mind that to actually be able to fill up a compromise on my end, it will be around after mid year (if all goes fine).

But deep in the heart, I would love to see a coco II contemporary game. <3





Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-01
Yeah it occurred to me later that weren't using even block colors. As black is the common natural, using it as the main background is the only option so making a game in backgrounds any color limited the fore-pixels to single black. Such as green grass or white snow would have black pixel in sprites/objects (group of chr$). :|

I'm starting to get ideas about an adventure game for the coco 2 extended disk basic and also 3. Perhaps there an adventure construction kit (or even another genre) to try out.
For now, I've imagined implementing the ease of both text/click n point due to the simple interaction and animation. As appose for just a coco 2 game, karateka/fist2/ninja sounds awesome and perhaps I can try some sprite tests but so far I don't feel so positive about animated action games for the coco2. :zzz:

Recently, I wrote a message vertical scroller, where a colored word would appear and then, in about 20 sec of calculating, scroll up another. I think each letter is like 3x3 char and with the alphabet store in DATA. I wanted to connect this to the comm port as a twitter feed.  :P
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-01
Yep, an adventure sounds like an easier endevour and it would be where I would start.
But unlike my text mock a few posts before, I´d drop the text entirely for icons+point and click, maybe text only for dialogs.
Which I believe is what you pretty much just said.

I would still be uneasy on a Dungeon Master x Single image dilemma. The single screen is sure easier but a bit disorienting spatial wise.

A Karateka in text mode would work just fine, it would move on a 32x16 basis but frames could handle the subpixel at 64x32, the paralax of course would be fake and positioning things in a tricky fashion (ye read here design with black backgrounds, or black borders)... would just work out, like the example below  ;)

edit: don´t bother the aspect ratio, pixels would be taller on a real coco, but they are all legal as it is. Would be quite a heck of work to animate that with plenty of frames, but a pleasure job to do none the less.

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-01
Alright! Cool.  =D That's almost perfect although the only issue is moving one or two pixels left or right. In this case, it would be okay except for the inner hand. It's best to separate with black pixels around the feet like with the rest of the character.

Rather than manually working it out, I'll have to create a plotter to produce DATA code. This way, colors will also be able to be set dynamically.

For the background, it would either be loaded from disk or code data.
Code: (glbasic) [Select]
NEW

5 ' HALF OFF A PACMAN MAZE - COCO 2
10 CLS 0
100 FOR Y=0 TO 7
110 FOR X=0 TO 26
120 READ DD
130 EE=2
'130 EE=(RND(4)+2)
140 IF DD>0 THEN CC=128+(16*EE)+DD
150 IF DD=0 THEN CC=128
160 IF DD=-1 THEN CC=128+(16*7)+8
170 IF DD=-2 THEN CC=128+(16*1)+8
180 PRINT @(Y*32)+X,CHR$(CC);
190 NEXT
200 NEXT
300 GOTO 300

1000 DATA 14,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,14,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,10
1010 DATA 10,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,10,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,10
1020 DATA 10,-1,14,12,12,10,-1,14,12,12,12,10,-1,10,-1,14,12,12,12,10,-1,14,12,12,10,-1,10
1030 DATA 10,-2,10,00,00,10,-1,10,00,00,00,10,-1,10,-1,10,00,00,00,10,-1,10,00,00,10,-2,10
1040 DATA 10,-1,12,12,12,08,-1,12,12,12,12,08,-1,08,-1,12,12,12,12,08,-1,12,12,12,08,-1,10
1050 DATA 10,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,10
1060 DATA 10,-1,12,12,12,08,-1,14,10,-1,12,12,12,14,12,12,08,-1,14,10,-1,12,12,12,08,-1,10
1070 DATA 10,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,10,10,-1,-1,-1,-1,10,-1,-1,-1,-1,10,10,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,10

RUN
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-01
The moving one pixel left or right would not be problem, I think in no moment the player would actually move as in a sprite concept (like x=x+1 pixel with the same frame). It would change frame as it moves and so the color clash in the inner hand would not be a problem.  [ops, it would be, considering the screen is scrolling sub pixel and the opponent is standing still. :O
Anyways, it can be designed to fix or the smallest scroll would have to be a full block.]

Same as for the paralax, since only the top part of the wall needs to move, similar to the apple II original version, and even there, it would be easy to code a CHR change to make it move in a subpixel fashion. Same thing for the background on the left. So deep in code, the game is a single screen one. Like just about everything is static but the the top part of the wall and the little bkg on the very beguining of game.

I recall print would only change the target location, it retains the current background over the rest of the image. So a data plotter would be most important as a way to display the hundreds of frames a single character would have?. Since all data is in code, I think it is quite doable.

I would not know how to change the art from the odd to even position, is that what the plotter would do?
I would probably try to get the movement into a full block, but if it is possible to sub move it, then would really rock.

Sorry if I don´t make much sense, went writing as I though about it.

I ran your code on mess, it draws half a maze, heck now I wonder if it would be fast enough to update the game sprites as needed, I even tried the speed poke. hmmm, was there a faster way to plot this graphics? I can´t quite recall. But I remember my print games were fast enough...hmmm

 edit: maybe peek and poke the chr$ around?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-01
Again, I will re-visit how the MC-10 games run so fast with sprites because I have tried many speed tricks but can not get anything close to fast enough.  :zzz: The peeked chars as a sprite will just need two frames with one pixel offset. The requirement can all be handled with a future painter tool/coco data code output. Backgrounds aren't an issue and moving from room to room with be screen switch because I can't imagine side scrolling.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-02
Yep, it seems now trouble would be speed of plotting.
Heck was it soo slow?? :o My games done in print did flicker a bit, but I recall having a half sprite of text moving up in one game and it was more or less ok.

The scroll would be just moving the top part of the wall left or right, and I mean just 6 cross characters as in the example.
There were other pixels to fix on the sprites if they are to move sub pixels.

If I keep looking at that I will end up coding it in GLB just for the sake. :S
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-May-02
I don't read this thread but the last Images I think are done in Glbasic, that's it's cool, make a game with this appareance can be cool!!!

I think King-Fu Master sold a lot of copies in Ipad, well the guy ripped the graphics from MAME Emulator  :D :D :blink: :blink: :glare:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-02
Yep all possible to run on GLB, I´m found of CHR sets. :good:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: mentalthink on 2014-May-02
You have to use SYMBOL AFTER, I'm not sure if only CPC can handle the Chars$ and modify putting you GFX into them.

Will be nice see some game like this but whit very smooth movement, like put 3D into this kind of pixles.. (Blender can do this very easy, have a modifier for voxelize any mesh).
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-02
It is exactly what I was wondering, to rotoscoope or 3d render to this resolution, would be a fine experiment.
This CHR$ set is from a tandy color computer, but I´m also really found of the DOS set on the BBS style. 16 colors ANSI/ASCII.
Lots of art example here:
http://sixteencolors.net/
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-04

Alrighty.  ;) Something I scratched up today. To test, I cut and paste the coco.txt in to mess emulator. :)

Code: (glbasic) [Select]
// --------------------------------- //
// Project: cocochr
// Start: Saturday, May 03, 2014
// IDE Version: 11.414

// coco char painter by matchy
// Default artwork by Erico
//
// SPACEBAR: Saves image data and code to user documents folder (coco.dat, coco.txt)
// Key 1 - 8: Select color
// Key 0: Select black
// Shift Key: Pen down
// C: Clear screen to black

TYPE _pal
id
anim
silver = 0xc0c0c0
gray = 0x808080
tin = 0x404040
green = 0x00ff00
yellow = 0x00ffff
blue = 0xff0000
red = 0x0000ff
white = 0xffffff
cyan = 0xff8000
magenta = 0xff0080
orange = 0x0080ff
black = 0x000000
ENDTYPE

TYPE _rect
x
y
width
height
width2
height2
ENDTYPE

TYPE _mouse
x
y
b1
b2
b1_last
b2_last
ENDTYPE

TYPE _code
line$[]
count
start = 100
ENDTYPE

TYPE _file
ok
channel
name$
reading
documents$
ENDTYPE

GLOBAL screen AS _rect
GLOBAL grid AS _rect
GLOBAL tool AS _rect
GLOBAL plot AS _rect
GLOBAL pal AS _pal
GLOBAL mouse AS _mouse
GLOBAL map[]
GLOBAL map_chr[]
GLOBAL code AS _code
GLOBAL file AS _file

loop()

FUNCTION get_color: id
LOCAL col
SELECT id
CASE 1
col = pal.green
CASE 2
col = pal.yellow
CASE 3
col = pal.blue
CASE 4
col = pal.red
CASE 5
col = pal.white
CASE 6
col = pal.cyan
CASE 7
col = pal.magenta
CASE 8
col = pal.orange
CASE 0
col = pal.black
DEFAULT
col = pal.black
ENDSELECT
RETURN col
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION draw_grid:
LOCAL x0, y0, x1, y1, width, height, col
width = screen.width / grid.width
height = screen.height / grid.height
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1
x0 = x * width
y0 = 0
x1 = x * width
y1 = screen.height
IF MOD(x, 2) = 0
col = pal.gray
ELSE
col = pal.tin
ENDIF
DRAWLINE x0, y0, x1, y1, col

NEXT
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height - 1
x0 = 0
y0 = y * height
x1 = screen.width
y1 = y * height
IF MOD(y, 2) = 0
col = pal.gray
ELSE
col = pal.tin
ENDIF
DRAWLINE x0, y0, x1, y1, col
NEXT
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION setup:
SYSTEMPOINTER TRUE
GETSCREENSIZE screen.width, screen.height
grid.width = 64
grid.height = 32
grid.width2 = grid.width / 2
grid.height2 = grid.height / 2
plot.width = screen.width / grid.width
plot.height = screen.height / grid.height
DIM map[grid.width][grid.height]
DIM map_chr[grid.width2][grid.height2]
DIM code.line$[0]
file.documents$ = PLATFORMINFO$("DOCUMENTS")
load_data()
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION draw_box: x, y, width, height, color
DRAWLINE x, y, x, y + height, color
DRAWLINE x, y + height, x + width, y + height, color
DRAWLINE x + width, y + height, x + width, y, color
DRAWLINE x + width, y, x, y, color
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION load_data:
LOCAL data$, i, ln$[]
file.channel = GENFILE()
file.reading = TRUE
file.name$ = file.documents$ + "/coco.dat"
DEBUG "load file:" + file.name$ + "\n"
file.ok = OPENFILE(file.channel, file.name$, file.reading)
IF file.ok
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height - 1
READLINE file.channel, data$
i = SPLITSTR(data$, ln$[], ",")
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1
map[x][y] = ln$[x]
NEXT
NEXT
CLOSEFILE file.channel
DEBUG "loaded:" + file.name$ + "\n"
ELSE
RESTORE erico_karate
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height -1
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1
READ map[x][y]
NEXT
NEXT
DEBUG "No file:" + file.name$ + "\n"
DEBUG "Default image restored\n"
save_data()
ENDIF
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION save_data:
LOCAL data$, r$
file.channel = GENFILE()
file.reading = FALSE
file.name$ = file.documents$ + "/coco.dat"
file.ok = OPENFILE(file.channel, file.name$, file.reading)
IF file.ok
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height - 1
data$ = ""
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1
IF x > 0
INC data$, ","
ENDIF
INC data$, map[x][y]
NEXT
WRITELINE file.channel, data$
// INC r$, "DATA "
// INC r$, data$
// INC r$, "\n"
NEXT
CLOSEFILE file.channel
DEBUG "Saved: " + file.name$ + "\n"
DEBUG r$
ELSE
DEBUG "Not saved: " + file.name$ + "\n"

ENDIF
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION clear_map:
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height - 1
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1
map[x][y] = pal.black
NEXT
NEXT
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION loop_mouse:
LOCAL col, px, py, pal_id_temp
mouse.b1_last = mouse.b1
mouse.b2_last = mouse.b2
MOUSESTATE mouse.x, mouse.y, mouse.b1, mouse.b2
IF mouse.x < 0 OR mouse.x > screen.width - 1 OR mouse.y < 0 OR mouse.y > screen.height - 1
RETURN
ENDIF
INC pal.anim
IF pal.anim = 50 THEN pal.anim = 0
grid.x = INTEGER(mouse.x / plot.width)
grid.y = INTEGER(mouse.y / plot.height)
plot.x = grid.x * plot.width
plot.y = grid.y * plot.height
px = MOD(grid.x, 2)
py = MOD(grid.y, 2)
IF mouse.b1_last <> mouse.b1 = 1 OR KEY(42) // shift
IF mouse.b1 = 1
map[grid.x + 0][grid.y + 0] = pal.id
IF pal.id > pal.black
IF px = 0 AND py = 0
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x + 1][grid.y - 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x + 1][grid.y - 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x + 1][grid.y + 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x + 1][grid.y + 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
ENDIF
IF px = 1 AND py = 0
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 1][grid.y + 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x -1][grid.y + 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
ENDIF
IF px = 0 AND py = 1
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y - 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y - 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x + 1][grid.y - 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x + 1][grid.y - 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 1][grid.y + 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
ENDIF
IF px = 1 AND py = 1
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y + 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 0][grid.y - 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 0][grid.y - 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 0] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 0] = pal.id
ENDIF
IF map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 1] > pal.black
map[grid.x - 1][grid.y - 1] = pal.id
ENDIF
ENDIF
ENDIF
ENDIF
ELSEIF mouse.b2_last <> mouse.b2 = 1
IF mouse.b2 = 1
INC pal.id
IF pal.id > 8
pal.id = 0
ENDIF
ENDIF
ENDIF
IF pal.anim < 10
col = pal.tin
ELSE
col = get_color(pal.id)
ENDIF
DRAWRECT plot.x, plot.y, plot.width, plot.height, col
IF px > 0
DEC plot.x, plot.width
ENDIF
IF py > 0
DEC plot.y, plot.height
ENDIF
draw_box(plot.x, plot.y, plot.width * 2, plot.height * 2, pal.white)
LOCAL i$ = INKEY$()
IF i$ <> ""
SELECT i$
CASE "c"
clear_map()
CASE "l"
load_data()
// CASE "s"
// save_data()
CASE " "
save_all()
CASE "0"
pal.id = 0
CASE "1"
pal.id = 1
CASE "2"
pal.id = 2
CASE "3"
pal.id = 3
CASE "4"
pal.id = 4
CASE "5"
pal.id = 5
CASE "6"
pal.id = 6
CASE "7"
pal.id = 7
CASE "8"
pal.id = 8
ENDSELECT
ENDIF
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION save_all:
save_data()
set_chr()
make_output()
// view_output()
save_code()
code.count = 0
REDIM code.line$[0]

ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION draw_plot:
LOCAL col
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height - 1
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1
plot.x = x * plot.width
plot.y = y * plot.height
col = get_color(map[x][y])
DRAWRECT plot.x, plot.y, plot.width, plot.height, col
NEXT
NEXT
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION set_chr:
LOCAL pc[], cc
DIM pc[4]
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height - 1 STEP 2
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width - 1 STEP 2
pc[0] = map[x + 1][y + 1]
pc[1] = map[x + 0][y + 1]
pc[2] = map[x + 1][y + 0]
pc[3] = map[x + 0][y + 0]
map_chr[x / 2][y / 2] = 0
FOR o = 0 TO 3
IF pc[o] > 0
INC map_chr[x / 2][y / 2], POW(2, o)
ENDIF
NEXT

pc[0] = (map[x + 1][y + 1] - 1) * 16
pc[1] = (map[x + 0][y + 1] - 1) * 16
pc[2] = (map[x + 1][y + 0] - 1) * 16
pc[3] = (map[x + 0][y + 0] - 1) * 16
FOR o = 0 TO 3
IF pc[o] > 0
INC map_chr[x / 2][y / 2], pc[o]
BREAK
ENDIF
NEXT
NEXT
NEXT
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION add_code: line$, num_flag
code.count = BOUNDS(code.line$[], 0) + 1
REDIM code.line$[code.count]
IF num_flag
INC code.line$[code.count - 1], ((code.count * 10) + code.start) + " "
ENDIF
INC code.line$[code.count - 1], line$
INC code.count
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION make_output:
LOCAL n$
add_code("CLS", FALSE)
add_code("NEW", FALSE)
add_code("'", TRUE)
add_code("CLS 0", TRUE)
add_code("FOR I = 0 to 510", TRUE)
add_code("READ NN", TRUE)
add_code("CC = 128 + NN", TRUE)
add_code("PRINT CHR$(CC);", TRUE)
add_code("NEXT", TRUE)
add_code("GOTO " + ((code.count * 10) + code.start), TRUE)
add_code("'", TRUE)
FOR y = 0 TO grid.height2 - 1
n$ = "DATA "
FOR x = 0 TO grid.width2 - 1
IF x > 0
INC n$, ","
ENDIF
INC n$, "&H" + UCASE$(HEX$(map_chr[x][y]))
NEXT
add_code(n$, TRUE)
NEXT
add_code("RUN", FALSE)
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION view_output:
LOCAL n$ = "\nCLEAR\n\nNEW\n"
FOR l = 0 TO code.count - 2
INC n$, code.line$[l]
INC n$, "\n"
NEXT
INC n$, "\nRUN\n"
DEBUG n$
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION save_code:
LOCAL data$
file.channel = GENFILE()
file.reading = FALSE
file.name$ = file.documents$ + "/coco.txt"
file.ok = OPENFILE(file.channel, file.name$, file.reading)
IF file.ok
FOR l = 0 TO code.count - 2
WRITELINE file.channel, code.line$[l]
NEXT
CLOSEFILE file.channel
DEBUG "code saved: " + file.name$ + " (" + code.count + ")" + "\n"
ELSE
DEBUG "code not saved: " + file.name$ + "\n"
ENDIF
ENDFUNCTION

FUNCTION loop:
setup()
WHILE TRUE
CLEARSCREEN
draw_plot()
draw_grid()
loop_mouse()
SHOWSCREEN
WEND
ENDFUNCTION

STARTDATA erico_karate:
DATA 0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4
DATA 4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0
DATA 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
DATA 4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0,4,0
DATA 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
DATA 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
DATA 8,8,8,8,8,8,8,0,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,0,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,0,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8
DATA 8,8,8,8,8,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2
DATA 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,5,5,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8,8,0,0,0,4,4,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,8,8,5,5,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,4,8,8,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,8,8,5,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,8,8,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 0,3,0,3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,0,0,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,0,5,5,0,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,0,4,4,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 0,3,0,3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,5,5,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,4,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,0,0,5,5,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,4,0,0,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 0,3,0,3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,0,0,0,0,5,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,0,0,0,0,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 3,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,0,0,0,0,5,5,5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,4,4,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 0,3,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,5,5,0,0,1,1,0,0,5,5,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,4,4,0,0,1,1,0,0,4,4,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
DATA 0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
DATA 0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,0,8,8,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
DATA 0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
DATA 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
DATA 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
DATA 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
ENDDATA
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-04
SUPER! :good:

Works wonders!
I like the dat file too.

Great job, a few touch buttons and a coco chr painter could be running on android!
You could also expand the painter to ascii 16 colors too.

I will deeply examine things later!

Any luck printing chr fast on a real coco? I saw there is a poke command to plot chr but did not have a chance to give it a go yet.
I also never used it, I feared pookes back then as it could crash the machine... :-[
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-04
It's really cool of you to test it out Erico. Perhaps you or anyone else would like to try some art. I will later  :bed: and then check out the fast sprites stuff.  :good:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-05
Gave a quick test a few days ago, had that layer program going too to try a r-type gfx, the app crash closed at one point I don´t know why.
I also see when using a tablet, some dots get pasted on a position that is not the mouse one.
I´m also sure I saw a mix of the last fenomena happening and plotting and illegal color here and there (ye more then 2 colors per block).

I will do the r-type again soon, an auto save would come handy or a way to load the dat file so if anything happen we don´t lose the image.
Maybe hitting space every now and then?...and if it crashes, paste the .dat on the GLB code default image? That would work right?

I know this was a quick code you did, but I thought about a couple things that would be nice to implement.
1-a way to layer an image for sketch and choose its transparency level.
2-interface wise, press and hold space and a circle appears around the cursor with the available colors, hover at one and release space to select.

Again, I´m marveled at it, gave a quick look at code and it is sure way above my ability to understand what is happening. :sick:

edit: YE I´ve noticed if you space save it, next time you load the project, it uses the saved .dat
It also crashed again, using mouse only, am not sure why, I was using the [shift] when it happened.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-05
Already, pressing space-bar will save the image and create the code. There is a bug in placing the pixels, such as placing one in upper left when lower right in the black char quad. I'm sure I could continue with the bugs and then implement more tools, such as palette selection, shape draw and fills. Recently, I tried to convert to c64 basic and perhaps others later (speccy, apple, etc) also but it's all experimental and just a team tool aid to what we really want to simply achieve, a (multiplatform/coco chr) adventure game (starting with story mapping and theme) as I don't think there is much hope for large chr sprites for an action game.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-13
Well, sometime ago I tried a mock with it, but It crashed and I didn´t save it, but I re-did it in photoshop just in case.
Here is it, Can´t remember which game is that though... :P

It is scaled to look better here.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-13
Looks cool and reminds me of Protector II.
http://www.lcurtisboyle.com/nitros9/protectorii.html.

So how about some static sceneries for an adventure game?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2014-May-14
What do you have in mind as an adventure? For the real coco? Which resolution?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2014-May-14
I am sort of leaving the main story line until I have a framework to make it on. Although I would like to have a good story, coincidentally, I'm currently experimenting with a multiplayer map, where players can create adjacent lots/scenes.

Right now, I think testing screens will do. For example, scenes like IK+ where we can use it for an action or adventure game. Alternatively, I wonder is tiling would be a choice, like with The Last Ninja.

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Oct-21
Just a little note to Matchy here.
We were talking about the graphics mode on those images above, as how cool would it be if we could move those graphics at a good speed on the real coco.

I stumbled into this page here, where the guy does basic coding for the pre-coco computers and it seems he can make it move fast enough.
Check the whole blog, it is a good read.

http://jimgerrie.blogspot.com.br/

I love the ugliness of those chunky graphics! I shall do a GLB game with that restriction at one point! :)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2015-Oct-22
Yeah I know about Jim's for a long while now and it's where I get some tips from.

erico, let's get back next year and start on this game!  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Oct-22
Not impossible, time frame is looking ok on time to come. :good:

Your code do deserve a place on snipets though, it is really cool stuff on many fronts! :booze:

I have prepared some stuff for a low res game... it has a strong adventure part and it could be visually done on a coco since I´m going for a lot less. ;)
Maybe we could team up.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2015-Oct-22
We really need to design and build an simple adventure engine for now. If you have a bit of artwork than I can use to test with, then we can start there I suppose.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Oct-23
Yep, are you looking for static images or images like dungeon master?
Particularly, I prefer the maze block style of the later, specially hired guns for its z level.

Are the images supposed to run on a real coco? If so, and the style is dungeon based, then I´m quite found of the corridors of Major Istar and Escape 2012. Problem would be producing those images. What do you think?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2015-Oct-23
I don't imagine either of us manual working on like background art for 20 rooms. Hence, I don't think we will get far this way unlike the adventure game maker, where the rooms and data can be rendered not only for the coco but perhaps other systems also. Is it really worth the effort?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Oct-23
I kind of didn´t understand, you are talking about doing an image per room on the classic adventure style (like those on coco), right?
Yep 20+ rooms can be a burden, but could be solved by working with photographs and then process and draw with it to get there.

I once (probably said this before on another post) thought about making a hired guns mechanics style game on a 3d world, all made of blocks with Z level.
It would have a bladerunner theme.

I have  also thought of the same mechanics towards an ´alien 2´style, ye colony on alien planet, where there would be a lot of interaction with the world.

This last example is something I think we could work out. What do you think?
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2015-Oct-23
Digitizing could work if need be. I'm open to whatever and am only motivated if you supply material, as a non-designer.

Please, post some Youtube samples of the games you mentioned!
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Oct-23
Ok, good to know, then we should do the alien colony thing (in and out doors).
The best example of this is definently hired guns, here a video, skip to 1:30 to see gameplay, check that it has z levels, which I find super.


As of visual style, I´d have to think.
If I mimick the coco visuals (be any mode) then things are sure faster to pull out. Low res and color count also helps too.
Gimme a while here since I think I did some visual work for this idea at some point and that could be usefull speedwise.

Both coco adventures I mentioned, Major Istar and Escape 2020 have this visuals, check:

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Oct-24
Just an extra thing about visuals, I did create a set of brushes for photoshop in order to produce image that corresponds visually to what one would expect from a coco hi res mode. Of course, it cheats a little as it dosen´t transform a black and white image into a color one when ntsc by the way of pixel position.

I simply extracted all visual patterns that produce any kind of color and transformed then into some kind of brush.
The result is what you see on my game thread here:
http://www.glbasic.com/forum/index.php?topic=9354.135

Which is a conversion from my current game image.

Now, I do have the patterns spread into a possible palette match according to approximate colors those patters generate (by blur), and from there I can have some color ramps. Here I append the image with the original pattern and the blurred equivalent all already on a possible ramp. For real use, I´d skip some of them, like the brick styled ones.

Still, considering those patterns as colors, one can easily convert real images to what would be, somehow, more or less, close to what to expect on the real hardware. I have been really happy using those to convert some images and it would be funky to try the assets for this possible adventure engine using those. Here a png, so you can use it too for whatever you need.

edit: for a conversion test, force downgrade your original image to an indexed palette that corresponds to the lower full colors, then, get back to rgb space and use a color picker to exchange each color for the appropriate dithered ones. This could be scripted, or actioned, but a manual work helps when some of the patterns don´t quite work. ;)

edit2: yes, there is green on the coco land, just rarely used. :D
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: matchy on 2015-Oct-24
Dungeons of Daggorath is another perfect example where there's no need to worry about the colors or background artwork. How important is it that there is?
 
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-09
...I'm open to whatever and am only motivated if you supply material, as a non-designer.
...
Fine, but there may always be a a "design" to actually create something, at least an idea or general direction.
In which case, it is easier for me to delve into things I already tried and plan to make at some point with same art or modified.

Dungeons of Daggorath is another perfect example where there's no need to worry about the colors or background artwork. How important is it that there is?
 

Sure is, but I´m also sure you got the point, as for the question with infinite answers, one may be the motivation to drive such work.

Here is what I have so far:

Looking at a dungeon crawler solution, 3d maps (with Z level), just like the mechanics on ´Hired Guns´. Possibly 4 players.

I did a bunch of research on the many crawlers while looking for something that would attend in and out doors.
Its dominant perspective seems to be the 'Dungeon Master' way, ie you are kind of looking down, but here I prefer the style used on ´Perihilion´ or 'Ishar III' as appended. With the former, it all takes a more vertical shifted camera looks and seems to be a stronger on drama. It could even accommodate 6 players. :)

Here the most probable perspective to be used so far.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-11
I have been giving some more extensive thoughts on this.

Certainly, like Matchy once said, the choice of 2d/3d drawing is a strong issue.
It seems to me currently, that drawing in 3d is the obvious choice.

But for exercise, I will try pull it out 2d (probably drawed on a 3d package to try speed things up and have the power of recycling).
My current worry is to convert a 3d array into the visual display, the composition.
I have done some stuff in this front with 2d arrays, 3d is new and should present a harder challenge.
I´d probably finish the 2d array game first before seriously delving into this, but here is some pre-conclusions.

It is a lot of (huge) work to make things happen in 2d considering the results on the mentioned games before, and it gets even worse as you add details.
So the first thing would be to have something simple kicking.

The simplest I have come to think so far is on the lines of Dagorath (wireframe kind of), keep photography off unless it is just plain painting like those coco II examples or some shading dictated by depth (fog).
This way, you could even dump a variation of full screens (like pipes) and work your levels within the pipes you have. It seems to be the easiest/fastest way.
If one goes the way of tiling the map, then you can recycle perpendicular tiles according to Z level and probably flip others.
Of course you can have it all as cubes, but it sure won´t impress the girls.
 
For this purpose (not the girls but testing) I decided to use a filled distorted wireframes. It will kill my ability to recycle some of the assets but it is still flippable none the less. The distortion is also unique on this genre and I hope it brings a claustrophobic sensation to the players (ye, even though you can see more this way).

One great problem you face when you choose this way, is about the FOV.
If you check many references, you will come to the conclusion that the smaller the FOV the easier to pull, but less the immersion.
Some of the very classic games have extreme small FOV.

Considering this and also considering a now center perspective (like hired guns, I changed my mind), I´m currently worrying about how much is shown and how it may fit the perspective itself. This is really hard to pull out. :(

So far, I believe that, considering you on the center block, 2 blocks each side, 2 blocks up and down, and 4 blocks as depth.
If the final output resolution is 340x200 (don´t ask about where this proportion came from...) then the depth is fine, if I go lower, I can safely reduce the depth to 3 blocks. It all may sound a little low res, but I would like 4 simultaneous players on the test, and between this res and a quarter of it, it makes a lot easier to pull out art for according to the pipeline I´m establishing. 

So ye, a 5x5x5 FOV 2d wire tiles should come out of this, 4 players playable in a simple test code.
Here a set of attachments of the many tests to figure things out, these are the better ones. :-[
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-12
Ok, so here is the target plan grid so far for the proposal.

Within this, the amount of sprites to compose the scene, considering flipping X and Y, is about the central blocks towards the up left.
That will be 45 sprite slots straight, 37 as I take off the ones not seen by been close to camera.
And this is all considering a single tillable block, the cube, and that I´m just filling the array´s content with either full or empty.

So, so far, each x/y symmetrical tile requires 37 images so to play a part. :O
The cube is going to be the shape.

Depending on the game´s resolution and other stuff like FOG, etc , I can reduce the amount of sprite slots (like last post, the FOV).
Now I understand why Hired Guns had to have such a blocky kind of textures.

Let´s test it out.
First I have to find a way to automate the slot´s sprite creation in a way that it will spit images that are ready usable or at least with the least trouble to be used by the code.  :sick:

Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-12
Got the tile spitter kind of working.
I tuned the FOV, so 36 tiles are needed to cover, the one you stand does not count.

I´m rendering each tile as a fullscreen+alpha for the sake of quick testing should anything perspective wise change.
This way I don´t need to compose the tile on screen, it is just a matter of overlaying the image with the desired tile at 0x0 coords.
For the sake of this method, I will keep the resolution kind of low (and I like it  :P) so 170x100.

The way of assembling the final image is in accordance to the sprite generated, back to front, top to down, left to right for each quarter of the screen.

Now I guess this needs life by a bit of coding.
I will try a 4 players split screen thing so we can at least walk around and see the world.
Anyone willing to give this a go may go ahead and do anyway you please.
Should you want to take a look at the 3d files, you are welcome too.

Here the images, use BLK001.png for the tiles. Both guides should give a good visual idea.
 
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2015-Nov-12
Cool - advanced stuff here :) v nice!
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-13
Yeah! After bumping my head on the wall a few times cause of the 3d array and how to rotate the fov within it...I finally made it.
It works fine, 1 player for now, I even added a dithered fog to it so it dosen´t look too bland.
Will try do the other players and a shooting thing.

Thanks Plow!
I´m sure I´m doing the array the worst way possible, will look into it at some point.

edit:a better image.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2015-Nov-13
Looking awesome there erico. Nice one  :good:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-13
Thanks, it is just a tech demo more or less, exercise.
I do have some plans for a couple games of these kind and using 3d to draw screen, even with the same low 3d style and movement, is way more practical I guess.
I will wrap it up and post the code as soon as I get other players dancing and some shooting.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Nov-14
oh heck, I guess I won´t be able to kick it up to an at least playable thing. :(
But I don´t want the idea lost and won´t post it here as it is off topic, will do a proper snippet post.

Like said before, I do have some ideas for crawlers to boot.:)
But it will have to wait the one games I plan to release.

Will edit with the snippet post soon...

here the link, have fun!
http://www.glbasic.com/forum/index.php?topic=10556.msg93207#msg93207
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2015-Dec-18
Here a neat ludum crawler:
http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-34/?action=preview&uid=13139

and here an article about dungeon master, I haven´t read yet but plan to.
http://www.filfre.net/2015/12/dungeon-master-part-1-the-making-of/
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2016-Mar-04
Some days ago I showed that coco 2 chr$ karateka mockup to Jim Gerrie who is much into mc-10 hardware and coding.
That said computer has similar chips to trs80-color. He did a full game out of it.
I´m marveled, the chr$ is moving faster than I thought possible.
Check it out:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2016-Mar-05
Cool  :good:
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2016-Mar-05
Yep, I´m amazed and feel like doing a GLB version...maybe as soon as I get rid of heavy work here.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: Ian Price on 2016-Mar-05
I'd happily help with that if you need it :)

I did a remake of StreetFighter II in Div many years ago, so a fighting game is no problem.
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: spacefractal on 2016-Mar-05
game would been outdated if its was a C64 game  =D. Im just kidding, since its was newer been a c64 game anyway.

Im do really like that blocky style. That kind of style of a game could been really fun to do using the CatchOut engine, which could suit it really nice and cool. The resolution used in CatchOut seens to been near the same (without the charset of course).
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: erico on 2016-Apr-01
Thanks guys, thanks for the offer Ian, I´m still deep into stuff here with all the rubbish political/economic situation brazil currently has...:(

But hey, I was talking with the people on the MC_10 club about the very first game I did on the COCO and Jim just knocked out a 10 line version this afternoon, I´m superbly impressed. He is really skilled into it. Here the video, it will be on the NAMAM-10line contest.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]

Here a link for the contest:
http://gkanold.wix.com/homeputerium
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2016-Apr-01
Wow!! I love this!

Great job - you should tweet it to Jordan Mechner...

I've read both of his Karateka and PoP books, I know he would love that Low-Fi Karateka :)
Title: Re: INPUT magazine
Post by: MrPlow on 2016-Apr-01
Ah, just realised I missed the deadline for the Basic 10 line comp...time got away from me...