It seems Mark Sibly of Blitz fame has been a busy bee.
http://www.monkeycoder.co.nz/ (http://www.monkeycoder.co.nz/)
Not sure if talk about a competitor is allowed on here so please delete this if its off topic
I got Monkey about 2 weeks ago now (work paid for it, not me :) ) and will admit that some of the features would be very welcome in GLBasic. I am not going to list them as it may seem like an advert but I did PM Kitty with my thoughts.
It is also very obvious Monkey is newer in the development cycle than GL, the documentation is poor, the forums are much quieter and I feel they are assuming most people buying it are well versed in Blitz. I guess when they get 2 years down the line if it has been a success then this will change, but it doesnt help the newbie now.
For now Im sticking with GL as it offers me more easy to access features, even if compiling and running on the iPhone can be a pain but may well try a simple project on Monkey
Gernot isn't afraid to discuss competitors on the boards, as long as they are not being advertised. monkey is closer to BlitzMax than the original Blitz, and as such isn't a particularly user-friendly language. Like BlitzMax, the documentation and examples are shockingly poor.
Compiling for iPhone on monkey is exactly the same as it is in GLB - you still have to use XCode. The only thing monkey does that GLB can't is HTML5 - and even that isn;t great on 75% of the most common browsers (it does work nicely in Chrome though).
monkey also doesn't offer built in 3D (althouhg there are libraries) and comes at a price (slightly) higher than a full GLB licence. It also doesn't support WebOS, GP2X, Wiz. I can't remember if it does Android or not.
It's a pretty good product though - it does exactly what it's supposed to do, and it does it well. I'm sticking with GLB though.
And one more thing - GLB has Gernot, who's forever on the boards and bends over backwards to sort out problems and implement required features. =D You can't say that about Mark Sibly. (I've used/own ALL of the Blitz products (except Plus), so I know how he works).
It's still early days for monkey though.
I'll weigh my comments on this one. The thing that attracts me to Monkey is Windows Phone 7 since that is what I want to hit to. Beyond that, I don't really like the language syntax. While it provides for inheritance and generics, the syntax is very awkward. Declaring Variables to be more precise.
My big beef with it is for $120 you get an IDE that is basic, Key-Word highlighting, no real project management, no collapsible function blocks. You have to pay another $100 just for that.
I think for competition, if Kitty were to get a builder for Windows Phone 7 and maybe HTML 5 GLBasic would be an Iron Tank that would flatten monkey with it's awesome IDE and tools. I'd honestly pay extra just to get that in GLBasic(Hint Hint).
The IDE doesn't bother me - I'm used to the standard IDEs for all BlitzMax products and could never get used to BLIDE etc. anyway (and found them too buggy to be functional too). The syntax is also very BMax, so I'm familiar with that too. I really believe that the Help files, documentation and examples that are the biggest problem for monkey. Noobs will really be put off by how user-unfriendly it is.
Windows Phone 7 could indeed be a big hitter - HTML5 would be useful, but not essential. Both would definitely by advantageous to GLB.
I cant make up my mind, the language feels a little over-complex for my taste but that may change in time. It's 2D only, I seriously doubt that we will ever see a 3D engine that covers all the target compilers/API's that it supports. It's an amazing piece of work, when you consider what's going on under the hood though.
I'll be sticking by GLB for serious work but having the odd mess about with Monkey for fun.
my 5 cents...
I can´t bother/afford to learn any other language then basic, which I already know enough.
The actual little time I have I need to put on making my ideas become real.
I have been looking for a replace on AMOS for a looong time, and although darkbasic seemed ok,
when I found out about glbasic there were no competition whatsoever.
Blitz products are a sure NO NO for me, as I once bought blitz basic for the AMIGA and guess what? I could not even code a simple lunar lander! Nothing worked out and I got really pissed. At that time I had done a street fighter clone and a few other complex games on AMOS so it was really frustrating.
Also bear in mind that I´m far from being anything skilled in BASIC, I´m just competent enough to achieve what I want somehow.
If it wasn't another 'Mark Sibly' product, I might have been interested. Like Ian I've been through his catalog in days past and although I no longer code at all, I was never that happy about his products and his attitude towards the people using them. If I was still coding, it would be GLB all the way still (I must profess to have an interest in the future version of GM that is targeting the same markets (sort of) but that's a long, long way away -- the one that allows you to publish games on such devices but without the intervention of YoYo).
Well I dabbled with BlitzMAX as a product I needed to write software for at work had a ready made Blitz module for interfacing (before I knew how to wrap DLL files in GLB) and got a basic program running but soon took the time to get it running in GLB.
As Gernot is fine with other products being discussed, in my mind the major advantage Monkey has over GLB is in how it handles the iPhone. I have only run the standard Monkey examples on my iPhone but it seems to handle screen rotation automatically meaning its as simple as checking the screen size to see what device and which way round its being held. The other thing thats a big plus to me is the Mac IDE (despite it not being a patch on GLB) and can run IOS code in the simulator. I do not have an iPhone 4 nor an iPad but its reassuring to know that the code I have written runs on both these devices. Monkey lets me hit one key from the IDE and the resultant code opens up in the simulator. I would pay to have that function in GLB.
HTML5 is also useful if you are designing websites. For example Angry Birds is now available to play on the net, imagine the hits that site gets at peoples lunchtimes at work? To be able to take your working iPhone/android game code and build for HTML5 would be an amazing sales tool for your game, try on the net before you buy.
But despite the above there are still too many negatives with Monkey, the IDE and complexity of the structure of the language being a put off for a novice. I looked at the Jungle IDE as an upgrade but its PC only and if I ever did get deep into Monkey it would be for iPhone stuff so I would want a decent Mac OSX IDE.
Yes GLB has competition, but at the moment its like comparing the English football team to the US team, always room for improvements, should win overall but there is always the chance of an odd little shock and suprise.
Likewise I shall be sticking with GLB as the documentation is superb and very reminiscent of the original Blitz suite of products, detailed syntax and examples to show the commands usage. But Monkey is very much along the same lines as BMax regarding syntax and documentation, and it has to be said BMax had the most appalling documentation that caused even seasoned Blitzers to point crosses at their monitors and recite incantations at their PC's to expel the demons within =)
The key point mentioned by Ian Price is that Gernot unlike Mark stands by his product and supports his customers, whereas Mark is obviously off somewhere in Hawaii sipping cocktails.
All in all I love the HTML5 stuff and it is an area that will excel in time as browsers become more supportive of all the W3C standards and will inevitably be interesting to see an explosion of cool web content but for me I'm happy that I have purchased a language that is fully supported by it's author and one who is prepared to give time to his customers especially given that GLB is probably not his full-time occupation.
Hear Hear...
Yes, Gernot "hands on" approach to his users, is something that can be taken for granted, it should not.
GLB is also easy, it's not got all the latest bells and whistles of say C++ for example but that's not the point. It's easy to learn, yet powerful and productive. This is why people choose BASIC, they dont want to learn generics, interfaces, overloaded polymorphic methods etc... I have introduced my son to GLB, he was writing his first program within the day, after the first week he was not asking for help, just coding away on his own... now that's just great IMHO!
Quote from: Ian Price on 2011-May-17
I really believe that the Help files, documentation and examples that are the biggest problem for monkey. Noobs will really be put off by how user-unfriendly it is.
Have you been reading my posts on their forums Ian? :) Tried to make exactly the same point and nobody could see there was anything wrong.
what age has your child? I am thinking in introducing mine into programming (he is 12) as from time to time he wants me writing a game for him... I started at 14, but it was the old-good times... I learned with a Spectrum Basic book in a Commodore Vic 20! :D
I started with 13. A bit too early as back then I only was "Hauptschule" - which is the lowest school system here. But I think kids that have a middle school level can safely start programming with 12.
Not that I would say "low level school" pupils are stupid. But I really lacked a lot of math back then. Finding the least common denominator was a days work for me back then. But I got it running with trial/error.
The positive side of GLBasic is, that you can have graphical output with the first line of code. Printing a character with "POKE 1024+x+y*40, ichar" was a bit complicated for me back then.
(I learned the y*40 "trick" after my first year of coding. Before that I was doing X=X+40)
Long speech - with 12 it's perfectly safe to start. But having a dad to ask and guide would have been great. OTOH, if my dad could program and I knew I'd not even rach half his brain soon, I'd have lost interest.
Any experience on that?
Quote from: Kitty Hello on 2011-May-17
The positive side of GLBasic is, that you can have graphical output with the first line of code. Printing a character with "POKE 1024+x+y*40, ichar" was a bit complicated for me back then.
(I learned the y*40 "trick" after my first year of coding. Before that I was doing X=X+40)
That gives away that you learnt on a C64 Gernot :) If you want an example of a badly written, incomplete version of basic then thats the one to use. Shame that Commodore just took the stadard PET basic that didnt need sound or graphic commands and dropped it into the Vic and C64 and didnt address the issues until the Plus4, C16 and C128
I was 13 when I started coding (Amstrad CPC 464 - 1984). I've not looked back since :)
Did you have a green monitor?
All my CPC friends had a green monitor. That was the reason I got a C64. :D
On the programming side and the manual, the CPC was way superior.
I started with a green monitor, but the machine developed a fault after a month or two, so we returned it, got a full refund and I added an extra £50 (and my Mum put in another £50) and got the colour machine. Green was good, but colour was fantastic. The manual for the CPC was indeed great. Really helpful.
ZX Spectrum 48K with those famous rubber keys. It all began in 1982 for me. Oh the love of attribute clash =)
Quote from: spicypixel on 2011-May-17
ZX Spectrum 48K with those famous rubber keys. It all began in 1982 for me. Oh the love of attribute clash =)
Gernot, can you add an attribute clash mode to GLBasic :)
Well Monkey is clearly superior when it comes to the language itself (self compiling, object oriented, modular). It lacks of 3d support (which isn't an issue for me). Both are great tools if you know what you're doing.
BTW: There is a discussion there too: http://www.monkeycoder.co.nz/Community/posts.php?topic=684&
I started around 8 or so with the C64. I personally liked the BASIC on the machine as it was powerful and allowed easy transition to assembler. The C128 had a more advanced BASIC, but unfortunately it was launched way too late...
Some games I wrote include
Walker
(http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/W/Walker_v2.png)
and
Battle
(http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/B/Battle_v2.png)
I also sold one copy of an BASIC/Assembler music generating program too :) I also did my one and only shoot-em-up too, but for some reason I never released it :(
After the C64, I got an Amiga 600. Didn't like to much as it was as hard as anything to program in C (and BlitzBasic for it was pretty awful).
After that I got an Acorn Archimedes A3010 - very nice it was too, and the BASIC was great. Walker 2 was converted to it and I wrote various utilities for it (including a published linked-list module). After a short while I moved to a Acorn RiscPC and my first hard drive :)
After Acorn went bust, I went for a Gateway PC and then various others including Mesh and Dell, before ending up with my very nice (and cheap) Zoostorm.
Anyhoo, GLBasic doesn't really need to self-compile. XNA/Windows 7/X360 support may be interesting, but you would need a C# compiler which would probbaly take more to do that any actual benefits.
Quote from: MrTAToad on 2011-May-17
Some games I wrote include
Walker
(http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/W/Walker_v2.png)
and
Battle
(http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/B/Battle_v2.png)
They look interesting - any chance of seeing those games remade in GLB? :)
Quote from: Gary_Leeds on 2011-May-17
Gernot, can you add an attribute clash mode to GLBasic :)
a what!?
Hey MrTAToad,
those screen shots look great! (funny player names and all...) :P
I wish I had my first coco games around, but they are lost forever.
I only kept 2 of games, a SF clone and a multiplayer platform...
The platform one I´m planning to recode in glbasic sometime soon...
Here they go:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: erico on 2011-May-17
Hey MrTAToad,
those screen shots look great! (funny player names and all...) :P
I wish I had my first coco games around, but they are lost forever.
I only kept 2 of games, a SF clone and a multiplayer platform...
The platform one I´m planning to recode in glbasic sometime soon...
Here they go:
I see that I was not the only one with a handicap in graphics... :D
My very first true game was a Karate game on Vic 20... I used strings of custom charset (filled with cursor movement "black" chars) for printing the guys... they were huge, almost full screen. It left only 2 bytes of free memory... I miss it a lot, and wish to have it around...
QuoteThey look interesting - any chance of seeing those games remade in GLB?
Walker has been (http://www.glbasic.com/showroom.php?site=games&game=runner&lang=en) which has slightly different mechanics. Battle could be, especially if and when I get my networking routine up and running properly... I would like to see it looks something like Spy V Spy...
Quotethose screen shots look great! (funny player names and all...
I think they were done by the people taking the screenshot :)
Ha, you guys are amazing, you still have your code from 1980?
For one, they'd be either on a 5.25" floppy, 1541 hard drive, or (*gasp*) cassette tape!
My god, I haven't seen mine since . . . 1982! ha.
I'd pay good money to see my old code from back then.
I had a C64 game that used 'smooth scrolling', written in assembly.
You would set a bit to tell what pixel to start the left column of characters, and increment it each frame until you reached a full character, then set the bit back to 0 while also shifting the entire screen / map over one character! But almost always there was flickering! So you tried syncing the drawing during the vertical refresh, which wasn't that much time!
Then there were sprites, which only would move to pixel 256 before you'd have to set another bit/flag to have the position start at 257 to reach the rest of the screen (320?)! Ha, I had the hardest time back then to get a routine to do this smoothly. Seems so easy nowadays, but now I'm 40, then I was 12. :D
[Edit] Way too long ago, oops the 1541 was the floppy drive!
[Edit 2] I'm really surprised how many people from around the world programmed the Vic20 and C64. And still remember it!
Quote from: ampos on 2011-May-17
My very first true game was a Karate game on Vic 20... I used strings of custom charset (filled with cursor movement "black" chars) for printing the guys... they were huge, almost full screen. It left only 2 bytes of free memory... I miss it a lot, and wish to have it around...
Did a few of those too, at the start of things I didn´t even know about graphic chars, so I used letters.
If I remember correctly, the very first game I coded, was on a COCO 2, and It was a death star tunnel type game.
It had no enemies, you just had to dodge debris.
Since I had no idea how to code a scroll, I used print command to draw the tunnel, and remember when printing reached the bottom of the screen? things would scroll up automatically so that is what I used, your ship would stay at the top.
looked something like this...
ps. imagination played such a role into this that I could even see darth vader waving hand on a tunnel window...so much for gfx...(12 years old I was)
[attachment deleted by admin]
I also did a few CPC bedroom titles...
War Machine
(http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/w/war_machine.png)
Shanghai Karate
(http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/s/shanghai_karate.png)
Lol, I have no idea why those shots are stretched, originals here ... http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/w/index.html
I did another for a company called Hewson Consultants, which folded directly after they paid me for it but it was never published.
Ampos, my boy is 11, just turning 12.
Ah yes, Hewson - remember them well.
I actually applied to join Probe Software - never got it though :)
Quotea what!?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute_clash
Quote from: bigsofty on 2011-May-17
I also did a few CPC bedroom titles...
War Machine
(http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/w/war_machine.png)
Shanghai Karate
(http://www.cpcgamereviews.com/s/shanghai_karate.png)
my god! :O :O :O wonderful!
The Game Creators are also doing something similar, although covering a few more interesting platforms, of which the most interesting is Blackberry (who are supposed to be releasing a C/C++ SDK at some point).
I started on the Coco at the age of 13 although I can barely recover the tape data. Lately, I have been getting back into Extended Color Basic and trying out things that I wouldn't have before. For example; 3D and sprites and then hopefully a game, perhaps in text or semi-graphics for screen animation speed. I would like to try other systems, like Apple 2 also. Actually, I really like to see retro computer programs that are created lately (this year). Has or will anyone be coding on an retro system this year?
Quote from: Gary_Leeds on 2011-May-17
Gernot, can you add an attribute clash mode to GLBasic :)
Those were quite strong on the MSX too.
Quote from: Kitty Hello on 2011-May-17
OTOH, if my dad could program and I knew I'd not even rach half his brain soon, I'd have lost interest.
Any experience on that?
I´m not sure, but my dad was a system manager/creator (systems for "chão de fabrica") back in the 70s for the foreign companies in brazil. My mom is a fine artist, they both also teach at several schools, my mother been a specialist on children art education, my dad designed and executed factory managing systems for a few "worldwide" companies. I guess my background comes from that.
Me and my brother always played board games(had huge collection) and also invented a few, mom always kept ours drawing/creative skills going. For me, the computer media, back on the 80s, was the perfect place to explore..you know, you can get sprites on a board game but can´t animate them and few other draw backs.
What is funny about this, is that dad never helped me on the programming side. I came around my things by my self. Mom gave us all kind of visual exercises but never helped on the computer art side, and I never asked them to. I guess they respected our choices and tried their best not to interfere if not asked for.
At the end, my brother became a post doc class A scientist on genetic engineering and I am pretty much what you guys see on my portfolio and by all talks around here.
I don´t have kids, but hope this helps give any insight. :)
EDIT: Dad was always hard on my math grades...
Being a dad, Its a fine line between encouragement and perental pressure. Especially when you want them to succeed.
Well I started when I was about 8 years old and most of my stuff was pretty dire but I found that I preferred doing artwork on the computer. Wish I had some of my old stuff (on tape) but alas my speccy artwork has been lost in the midst of time. I recently did some speccy and c64 stuff on the PC of all machines but kept faithful to the original machines by coding a couple of attribute clash checkers to ensure the colours were correct for each machine per character square. The speccy pic took ten minutes but I liked it lol, the other two c64 pics took far longer =)
(http://www.spicypixel.net/dump/cyanight.png) (http://www.spicypixel.net/dump/cgenik.png) (http://www.spicypixel.net/dump/sentinel.png)
I guess it all worked out for me in the end as I have done the artwork for a wide number of machines/consoles and also received the electronic boutique award in 2000 for my work on Thunderbirds for the GameBoy Color knocking Pokemon Yellow off the coveted No.1 spot that Christmas. Here's a few of the titles that I've done the artwork for maybe some of you have seen my stuff before =)
X-It (aka Zonked) - Amiga
James Pond Robocod - GameBoy Mono / NES
Pinkie - SNES
Waterworld - Megadrive
Mickey Mania - PC
Cool Bricks - GameBoy Color
Thunderbirds - GameBoy Color
Dexters Laboratory - GameBoy Advance
Rocky - GameBoy Advance
Samurai Jack - GameBoy Advance
and loads I cant remember heehee...
I loved X-It on the Amiga; fantastic puzzle game. The graphics were indeed ace. I nabbed the sprite-sheet off of here - http://sprites.walen.se/?level=collection&id=1 (Search X-IT) a long while back, as I was working on a Sokoban game. I never did use the imagery, but I was impressed enough to remember it years after getting rid of my Amiga. It was remade a few years ago too (using your graphics).
I don't know how different the console versions of Mickey Mania were to the pc, but that's another great game, with fantastic graphics.
I've not played any of the others, but I have heard of all of them.
What a great portfolio :)
Wow! Very professional stuff.
We have the ppl to build a dev team that could easily compete against the pros I think.
Quote from: Ian Price on 2011-May-18
What a great portfolio :)
Thank you very much Ian =)
If I recall X-it Level 74 is called "You can thank Marcus for this one" it was a bit a pain to play (lol) and probably one of the only levels I designed. I did come up with the original concept and presented it to Richard and Stephen who thought we could make a decent game out of it. Stephen did a fantastic job of creating the levels and puzzles. Eventually released by Psygnosis and something we were really proud of back then.
Quote from: Kitty Hello on 2011-May-18
Wow! Very professional stuff.
We have the ppl to build a dev team that could easily compete against the pros I think.
Definitely! As far as I can tell having worked within the industry and also with indie stuff too, the only real difference is not ability but commitment to a project. Communication is obviously different, email, irc, private forums etc. but not a huge hurdle. I'd certainly be up for a collaborative project.
Wonderful art! :O
You don´t have an account at Pixel Joint do you? online portfolio somewhere?
Quote from: erico on 2011-May-18
Wonderful art! :O
You don´t have an account at Pixel Joint do you? online portfolio somewhere?
No but I do intend to get some of my pixel art online at some point however the thought still daunts me when I look at all my files and I've got over a quarter of a million in my GFX folder :-/ I admit there must be dupes and there are ripped stuff and reference material too but it's a lot of gfx to sift through. One day =)
Wow, impressive stuff indeed! There's a lot of people here with real talent! :nw:
Quote from: bigsofty on 2011-May-18
Wow, impressive stuff indeed! There's a lot of people here with real talent! :nw:
Wonder if Monkey has this diverse fan base on their forums :)
I somehow doubt it :)
Quote from: Gary_Leeds on 2011-May-18
Wonder if Monkey has this diverse fan base on their forums :)
don´t say it! :x