Hello and Good news I think

[BlueSteel]

IMHO: I think it sucks how you can't compile (create) for some OS's without owning them. To me. a programmer shouldn't need 3 or more different hardware platforms to be able to write sdoftware for all platforms. Its like the companies are limiting their software ranges (due to copywrite) accross the platforms. I know that the big companies  can afford to do it. but its stifling those inventive, imaginative prople to the systems that they can afford. As much as i hate it the way seems to be leaning to web based apps (cloud computing) to be able to get your app to work on multiple os's without having to own all the different computer/consoles. APPLE is reducing the quantity and quality of apps for their platforms. there are many great programs out there that could be ported accross to the apple but they aren't because of one thing.. THE PROGRAMMERS DON'T own an APPLE computer. If tthey opened this up to program writters them more peoplew would buy their hardware because they will be able to purchace their favourite apps for that platform. APPLE's hardware MIGHT be the best.. but if the software you want to run doesn't support that platform then people will choose other platforms where they can run their desired Application.
I did buy GLBasic because its stated that I could write apps for all those different platforms.. (I know i didn't read further..) I too would like to be able to port some of my older software with new tweaks for handling the newer controlers etc.. but can not afford to buy an apple to compile it on.. In todays world computer software should be able to be coded and compiled and released onto every platform available. on any computer which has cross plaatform support (like GLBasic). as their instruction sets for the dedicated chipsets / CPU's are known. you should be able to tell the compiler to generate for and CPU.

I'll get off my soapbox now.. sorry for boaring everyone with my dribble.

[Cliff3D]

...and if you supply the app compiled for a platform you don't own, and it doesn't work, what do you do then?

The hardware manufacturers probably hope that if you have programs that you'd like to compile for their platform, you will make enough money from that activity to be able to afford to own the platform. But there's another simple way - just form groups of trusted people with different platforms, so that the Mac user can compile and tes ton Mac, the Pandora user can compile and test on Pandora, and so on.

[Moru]

I can't agree more. If you want to release a game or other application for some platform, you need to have that platform to test it on. You can't just assume that it works fine on a slow iPhone just because it works on your fast stationary computer. There are different tricks you need to pull off to get more speed on different platforms. And when problems show up, you need to debug them on the real platform, emulators are not good enough for that.

All those highlevel languages and libraries does not protect you from technology limits, we are not as far in developement as we sometimes want to believe :-)

[hardyx]

...and if you supply the app compiled for a platform you don't own, and it doesn't work, what do you do then?

The fact is that the platform is iPhone, not Mac. You can develop in a PC with crosscompilers and test the application in the iPhone without problems. But Apple force you to buy a Mac if you want to distribute your game in the Appstore. They want developers pay a tax of 1000+ euros for developing for iPhone. If you are an indy developer, and you want to offer a game or utility for free, or for a few cents, you can't afford this.

[Hatonastick]

...and if you supply the app compiled for a platform you don't own, and it doesn't work, what do you do then?

The fact is that the platform is iPhone, not Mac. You can develop in a PC with crosscompilers and test the application in the iPhone without problems. But Apple force you to buy a Mac if you want to distribute your game in the Appstore. They want developers pay a tax of 1000+ euros for developing for iPhone. If you are an indy developer, and you want to offer a game or utility for free, or for a few cents, you can't afford this.

My sentiments exactly.  I own an iDevice.  I am not interested in developing for Apple computers (not any more), only the iDevice and there's no reason why an Apple computer should be required in this case.  They just want to force people into buying their expensive computers so they can feel warm and fuzzy.  It has got absolutely nothing to do with necessity or quality control, and everything to do with greed.

I used to be an Apple fan, but I'm really not a fan of the direction the company has been taking the past 5 years or so.  They really are the new Microsoft as far as I'm concerned (their shares have been worth more than Microsofts for a while actually).  Or trying to be.

So while I agree with 'you should own the hardware you are developing for', this is slightly different.  This is more a case of 'being forced to buy hardware you aren't developing for just because they can'.

Hopefully this makes sense and isn't totally narky.  I haven't had much sleep.  In any case I'm hoping the AppUp thing takes off.  Assuming I even have a chance of getting onto that bandwagon at least, if I can't get onto the iDevice one.  Either way I think my Netbook has been a far better investment all round than my iDevice.

[BlueSteel]

ok.. you've convinced me... sort of...

I'm not saying that i can't send things out to alpha/beta testers to test.. but sending the code to be compiled is a different story.
I'd still like to be able to compile for all platforms/OS's as stated above and I still can't see why its so difficult. and is the main reason i can see that cloud computing(web based or Client or what ever WILL unfortunatly be the way of the future where things will never run as fast as the hardware can produce because its being passed through a third party handler which has its own overheads

I DO have issues trusting people.. (i've only found 2 people i can really trust in my life with my life,code,ideas,thoughts .. hell i don't even trust some members in my own family)

I'd like to see my software on as many platforms/OS's .. you can't blame me for that dream in fact if i didn't have that dream then i'd give up right now

[Cliff3D]

Hopefully this makes sense and isn't totally narky.

Nope, you're making perfect sense. There are two slightly different issues - one where you really OUGHT to own and use the target platform (be it an iDevice or a GPH/OpenPandora device), and one where an intermediary platform seems to have been slapped into the production pipeline for, mmmm, non-altuistic purposes. I'm pretty sure it's possible to argue pros and cons about that as an idea, or even in the Apple specific case, but on a nice broad generic footing it doesn't look to be "a good thing"

[Ian Price]

They want developers pay a tax of 1000+ euros for developing for iPhone.

Actually, I've just bought an Apple licence and it costs US$100 or £59 in real money. Very different to 1000+ euros which (according to today's conversion rate) works out at £827.27. Your quote is more than 14 times the actual cost.

I agree that it is poor to have to use a Mac to compile for iDevice, but if you sell only 1000 apps (remember there are said to be over 80million iDevice users) at the lowest price point 59p, then you've nearly paid off the cost of the Mac (ignoring Apple's cut). Consider it as a casualty of war - a necessary evil. That's with just one app. OK, I know there's the licence fee etc. but it's highly likely that a decent app should return more than your initial investment. And there are cheap second hand Macs out there.

It sucks, but the investment could reap major rewards. Well, that's what I say to convince myself...

[Bursar]

They want developers pay a tax of 1000+ euros for developing for iPhone.

Actually, I've just bought an Apple licence and it costs US$100 or £59 in real money. Very different to 1000+ euros which (according to today's conversion rate) works out at £827.27. Your quote is more than 14 times the actual cost.

I think the 1000+ euro price is to include the cost of a Mac, iDevice and dev license.

Mac Mini - £650
iPod Touch - £189
Dev License - £59
Total - £898

So it turns out 1000 euros is an underestimation! 

[Ian Price]

I think the 1000+ euro price is to include the cost of a Mac, iDevice and dev license.

Mac Mini - £650
iPod Touch - £189
Dev License - £59
Total - £898

So it turns out 1000 euros is an underestimation! 

I don't consider the Mac, iDevice etc. a tax. The license, maybe. Not the hardware itself.

And sometimes you just have to speculate to accumulate.

[Kuron]

Cameron:  I think you might be confusing Macs with iPhones.  I could be wrong, but I think you can compile OS X games with GLBasic and distribute them with zero problems without the need of actually owning a Mac or needing a Mac to compile on.

Developing for the iPhone is another story, but only because you are wanting Apple to invest their time and money in you and your product and publish your app.  All publishers (regardless of the platform) have strict requirements on what they will publish and guidelines on how things have to be done if you want to work with that publisher.

[Bursar]

I think the 1000+ euro price is to include the cost of a Mac, iDevice and dev license.

Mac Mini - £650
iPod Touch - £189
Dev License - £59
Total - £898

So it turns out 1000 euros is an underestimation! 

I don't consider the Mac, iDevice etc. a tax. The license, maybe. Not the hardware itself.

And sometimes you just have to speculate to accumulate.

That's why I was careful to say 'price' and not 'tax'. And I agree, you get nowt for nowt

[Bursar]

Would you believe it, I've found a Mac Book Pro just sitting in a cupboard at work  It's a Core 2 Duo 2.2GHz with 4GB of RAM running Snow Leopard. There's also an iPhone 3GS kicking around the department (it's kind of a pool phone), but I'm sure I can snaffle it when needed.

Now to figure out how to get the company to buy a dev license for me....

[Ian Price]

Now to figure out how to get the company to buy a dev license for me....

Cheapskate!

[hardyx]

I don't consider the Mac, iDevice etc. a tax. The license, maybe. Not the hardware itself.
And sometimes you just have to speculate to accumulate.

If you own a Mac previously and you are happy with it, you don't consider its price.
But I think is sad to have to buy a Mac *only* to make iPhone applications. If you pay a developer license to Apple, they would let you to choose your working tools.