Anyone seen Monkey?

Previous topic - Next topic

spicypixel

It seems Mark Sibly of Blitz fame has been a busy bee.
http://www.monkeycoder.co.nz/
http://www.spicypixel.net | http://www.facebook.com/SpicyPixel.NET

Comps Owned - ZX.81, ZX.48K, ZX.128K+2, Vic20, C64, Atari-ST, A500.600.1200, PC, Apple Mini-Mac.

Gary

Not sure if talk about a competitor is allowed on here so please delete this if its off topic

I got Monkey about 2 weeks ago now (work paid for it, not me :) ) and will admit that some of the features would be very welcome in GLBasic. I am not going to list them as it may seem like an advert but I did PM Kitty with my thoughts.

It is also very obvious Monkey is newer in the development cycle than GL, the documentation is poor, the forums are much quieter and I feel they are assuming most people buying it are well versed in Blitz. I guess when they get 2 years down the line if it has been a success then this will change, but it doesnt help the newbie now.

For now Im sticking with GL as it offers me more easy to access features, even if compiling and running on the iPhone can be a pain but may well try a simple project on Monkey

Ian Price

Gernot isn't afraid to discuss competitors on the boards, as long as they are not being advertised. monkey is closer to BlitzMax than the original Blitz, and as such isn't a particularly user-friendly language. Like BlitzMax, the documentation and examples are shockingly poor.

Compiling for iPhone on monkey is exactly the same as it is in GLB - you still have to use XCode. The only thing monkey does that GLB can't is HTML5 - and even that isn;t great on 75% of the most common browsers (it does work nicely in Chrome though).

monkey also doesn't offer built in 3D (althouhg there are libraries) and comes at a price (slightly) higher than a full GLB licence. It also doesn't support WebOS, GP2X, Wiz. I can't remember if it does Android or not.

It's a pretty good product though - it does exactly what it's supposed to do, and it does it well. I'm sticking with GLB though.

And one more thing - GLB has Gernot, who's forever on the boards and bends over backwards to sort out problems and implement required features. =D You can't say that about Mark Sibly. (I've used/own ALL of the Blitz products (except Plus), so I know how he works).

It's still early days for monkey though.
I came. I saw. I played.

XanthorXIII

I'll weigh my comments on this one. The thing that attracts me to Monkey is Windows Phone 7 since that is what I want to hit to. Beyond that, I don't really like the language syntax. While it provides for inheritance and generics, the syntax is very awkward. Declaring Variables to be more precise.
My big beef with it is for $120 you get an IDE that is basic, Key-Word highlighting, no real project management, no collapsible function blocks. You have to pay another $100 just for that.
I think for competition, if Kitty were to get a builder for Windows Phone 7 and maybe HTML 5 GLBasic would be an Iron Tank that would flatten monkey with it's awesome IDE and tools. I'd honestly pay extra just to get that in GLBasic(Hint Hint).
Owlcat has wise

Ian Price

The IDE doesn't bother me - I'm used to the standard IDEs for all BlitzMax products and could never get used to BLIDE etc. anyway (and found them too buggy to be functional too). The syntax is also very BMax, so I'm familiar with that too. I really believe that  the Help files, documentation and examples that are the biggest problem for monkey. Noobs will really be put off by how user-unfriendly it is.

Windows Phone 7 could indeed be a big hitter - HTML5 would be useful, but not essential. Both would definitely by advantageous to GLB.
I came. I saw. I played.

bigsofty

I cant make up my mind, the language feels a little over-complex for my taste but that may change in time. It's 2D only, I seriously doubt that we will ever see a 3D engine that covers all the target compilers/API's that it supports. It's an amazing piece of work, when you consider what's going on under the hood though.

I'll be sticking by GLB for serious work but having the odd mess about with Monkey for fun.
Cheers,

Ian.

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC.  As potential programmers, they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
(E. W. Dijkstra)

erico

my 5 cents...

I can´t bother/afford to learn any other language then basic, which I already know enough.
The actual little time I have I need to put on making my ideas become real.

I have been looking for a replace on AMOS for a looong time, and although darkbasic seemed ok,
when I found out about glbasic there were no competition whatsoever.

Blitz products are a sure NO NO for me, as I once bought blitz basic for the AMIGA and guess what? I could not even code a simple lunar lander! Nothing worked out and I got really pissed. At that time I had done a street fighter clone and a few other complex games on AMOS so it was really frustrating.

Also bear in mind that I´m far from being anything skilled in BASIC, I´m just competent enough to achieve what I want somehow.

Hatonastick

If it wasn't another 'Mark Sibly' product, I might have been interested.  Like Ian I've been through his catalog in days past and although I no longer code at all, I was never that happy about his products and his attitude towards the people using them.  If I was still coding, it would be GLB all the way still (I must profess to have an interest in the future version of GM that is targeting the same markets (sort of) but that's a long, long way away -- the one that allows you to publish games on such devices but without the intervention of YoYo).
Mat. 5: 14 - 16

Android: Toshiba Thrive Tablet (3.2), Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (4.1.2).
Netbook: Samsung N150+ Netbook (Win 7 32-bit + Ubuntu 11.10).
Desktop: Intel i5 Desktop with NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 (Win 8.1 64-bit).

Gary

Well I dabbled with BlitzMAX as a product I needed to write software for at work had a ready made Blitz module for interfacing (before I knew how to wrap DLL files in GLB) and got a basic program running but soon took the time to get it running in GLB.

As Gernot is fine with other products being discussed, in my mind the major advantage Monkey has over GLB is in how it handles the iPhone. I have only run the standard Monkey examples on my iPhone but it seems to handle screen rotation automatically meaning its as simple as checking the screen size to see what device and which way round its being held. The other thing thats a big plus to me is the Mac IDE (despite it not being a patch on GLB) and can run IOS code in the simulator. I do not have an iPhone 4 nor an iPad but its reassuring to know that the code I have written runs on both these devices. Monkey lets me hit one key from the IDE and the resultant code opens up in the simulator. I would pay to have that function in GLB.

HTML5 is also useful if you are designing websites. For example Angry Birds is now available to play on the net, imagine the hits that site gets at peoples lunchtimes at work? To be able to take your working iPhone/android game code and build for HTML5 would be an amazing sales tool for your game, try on the net before you buy.

But despite the above there are still too many negatives with Monkey, the IDE and complexity of the structure of the language being a put off for a novice. I looked at the Jungle IDE as an upgrade but its PC only and if I ever did get deep into Monkey it would be for iPhone stuff so I would want a decent Mac OSX IDE.

Yes GLB has competition, but at the moment its like comparing the English football team to the US team, always room for improvements, should win overall but there is always the chance of an odd little shock and suprise. 

spicypixel

Likewise I shall be sticking with GLB as the documentation is superb and very reminiscent of the original Blitz suite of products, detailed syntax and examples to show the commands usage. But Monkey is very much along the same lines as BMax regarding syntax and documentation, and it has to be said BMax had the most appalling documentation that caused even seasoned Blitzers to point crosses at their monitors and recite incantations at their PC's to expel the demons within =)

The key point mentioned by Ian Price is that Gernot unlike Mark stands by his product and supports his customers, whereas Mark is obviously off somewhere in Hawaii sipping cocktails.

All in all I love the HTML5 stuff and it is an area that will excel in time as browsers become more supportive of all the W3C standards and will inevitably be interesting to see an explosion of cool web content but for me I'm happy that I have purchased a language that is fully supported by it's author and one who is prepared to give time to his customers especially given that GLB is probably not his full-time occupation.

Hear Hear...
http://www.spicypixel.net | http://www.facebook.com/SpicyPixel.NET

Comps Owned - ZX.81, ZX.48K, ZX.128K+2, Vic20, C64, Atari-ST, A500.600.1200, PC, Apple Mini-Mac.

bigsofty

Yes, Gernot "hands on" approach to his users, is something that can be taken for granted, it should not.

GLB is also easy, it's not got all the latest bells and whistles of say C++ for example but that's not the point. It's easy to learn, yet powerful and productive. This is why people choose BASIC, they dont want to learn generics, interfaces, overloaded polymorphic methods etc... I have introduced my son to GLB, he was writing his first program within the day, after the first week he was not asking for help, just coding away on his own... now that's just great IMHO!
Cheers,

Ian.

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC.  As potential programmers, they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
(E. W. Dijkstra)

Gary

Quote from: Ian Price on 2011-May-17
I really believe that  the Help files, documentation and examples that are the biggest problem for monkey. Noobs will really be put off by how user-unfriendly it is.

Have you been reading my posts on their forums Ian? :) Tried to make exactly the same point and nobody could see there was anything wrong.


ampos

what age has your child? I am thinking in introducing mine into programming (he is 12) as from time to time he wants me writing a game for him... I started at 14, but it was the old-good times... I learned with a Spectrum Basic book in a Commodore Vic 20! :D
check my web and/or my blog :D
http://diniplay.blogspot.com (devblog)
http://www.ampostata.org
http://ampostata.blogspot.com
I own PC-Win, MacBook 13", iPhone 3G/3GS/4G and iPAC-WinCE

Kitty Hello

I started with 13. A bit too early as back then I only was "Hauptschule" - which is the lowest school system here. But I think kids that have a middle school level can safely start programming with 12.
Not that I would say "low level school" pupils are stupid. But I really lacked a lot of math back then. Finding the least common denominator was a days work for me back then. But I got it running with trial/error.

The positive side of GLBasic is, that you can have graphical output with the first line of code. Printing a character with "POKE 1024+x+y*40, ichar" was a bit complicated for me back then.
(I learned the y*40 "trick" after my first year of coding. Before that I was doing X=X+40)

Long speech - with 12 it's perfectly safe to start. But having a dad to ask and guide would have been great. OTOH, if my dad could program and I knew I'd not even rach half his brain soon, I'd have lost interest.
Any experience on that?

Gary

Quote from: Kitty Hello on 2011-May-17
The positive side of GLBasic is, that you can have graphical output with the first line of code. Printing a character with "POKE 1024+x+y*40, ichar" was a bit complicated for me back then.
(I learned the y*40 "trick" after my first year of coding. Before that I was doing X=X+40)

That gives away that you learnt on a C64 Gernot :) If you want an example of a badly written, incomplete version of basic then thats the one to use. Shame that Commodore just took the stadard PET basic that didnt need sound or graphic commands and dropped it into the Vic and C64 and didnt address the issues until the Plus4, C16 and C128