Author Topic: iPhone OS 4.0: New License closing doors to GLBasic?  (Read 16642 times)

Offline Hark0

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Apple must charge the license and to allow that the people should develope with what wants.
Apple don't HAVE to charge licence fees - they make money from the sale of every piece of software that appears on iXXX. They choose to, because they can. And yest this is similar to every console manufacturer ever. But this is NOT what the discussion was/is about. You've missed the point completely.

You have not understood me...

It seems to me likely that Apple charges his license and his percentage for every app...

BUT.... That leave me to develope with what me of the desire!


(Sorry for my bad english... I use a Google translator this time).

 :P  ;)
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Offline Ian Price

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BUT.... That leave me to develope with what me of the desire!
It (Apple)  leaves you to develop pretty much  whatever you want (within Apple's own restrictions - they have recently removed a ton of apps that no longer conform to their ever-changing wants/conditions), but it doesn't allow you to develop what you want HOW you want ;) That's the issue.
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Offline Kitty Hello

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IMO, we are very dependant on what Apple dictates us if we want to develop for their device.

You don't have to do that, but then you're out of the App Store. You can't develop for a Samsung Mobile phone, too. And if you want someone to sell your program, you sort of have to play by their rules.

I'm not a great friend of the Mac, of OS-X nor the license Apple forces us to obey, but I'm a great fan of getting 15,- EUR a day (every single day since Dec 2009) for these tiny iPhone games I made. I get more money from crap than from GLBasic. Thus, I play by the rules. (BTW: GLBasic is my favourite project. I'd not drop it even if sales were zero, mind!) I also am very happy about the copy protection Apple offers through the app store. I think about 50% of all devices _must_ get software thought the legal App Store. That's nice. And if the Pandora will ever come, I doubt that the sales will come even close to what we can earn on the Apple App Store. True facts.

Long speech, short conclusion: Apple is never able to distinguish between an objC XCode game and a GLBasic game. If they sued me, you'd still be legal. And if they'd really bug us, you'd get the source for the engine.
As long as there is an official GCC for iPhone, there will be GLBasic for iPhone.

But let's take a close look at the requirements:
  • only use Documented APIs check
  • originally written in Objective-C, C, C++ check (see below)
  • only code written in C, C++ ... may compile and directly link ... check

There's no difference if you write:
Code: GLBasic [Select]
#define IF if(
#define THEN ){
#define ENDIF }
IF a>5 THEN
PRINT(5,5,5);
ENDIF
 
or have GLBasic translate your code into C++. Also, what you copy to the Mac _is_ C++ code, only. Noone can proof you did not write that with your hands. The library you link against (libGLBasic-EGL.a) is C++ code that's pre-compiled for your convenience. No tricks, no interpreter, no hidden API, no other language involved when you boot your Mac.


« Last Edit: 2010-Apr-13 by Kitty Hello »

Offline Moru

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Naturally you will make more money if you sell games for the platform that has 20% of the handheld game market in USA. I don't think you will make much money on selling games on the Pandora :-)

Offline mykyl66

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Thank you Kitty.

Cheers

Mike R

Offline Hark0

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+1

 ;)
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Offline codegit

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Meow  :D
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Offline doimus

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It's really unfair and most importantly UNPROFESSIONAL from Apple to change the rules halfway through the game when they're winning. Really reminds me of spoiled kids from primary school playground.

As Gernot said, we have to play by the rules, but be sure those rules wouldn't stand a chance in any court if they decided to sue anybody. No way. Their requirements are as close to racism as it gets in software development. 
What are they going to require next? That we should all wear skirts while developing in Objective-C?

Offline Sokurah

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Its all pretty silly. I have read things like "There will be no exceptions to the rule" apparently from someone in the know to everything is fine and dandy etc.
I think Steve Jobs was pretty clear.

So, there's no doubt where they stand, but you could also view this as primarily done to shut Adobe out.
...they may not take action against the likes of GLB and Blitz. We don't know yet.
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Offline Kuron

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but be sure those rules wouldn't stand a chance in any court if they decided to sue anybody. No way. Their requirements are as close to racism as it gets in software development.
Seriously how old are you?  You are one of the ones who do not seem to comprehend the fact that they are not making any restrictions on developing for the iPhone.  The restrictions apply only if you are using them as your publisher and distributor for your games.  Lets take Apple out of the equation.  Lets say you make a game for the PC, and you want to use EGames as your publisher.  They refuse your game because it is a porn based game.  Are you going to throw fits how they are being racist or not allowing your games on the PC (even though you are free to self-publish)?

Seriously, have you ever worked for or dealt with publishers before?  Based on many comments here, on other forums and blogs, I think Apple really needs to redo their ToS to eliminate those of the "script kiddie" mentality.  If Apple blocked all game makers and gaming themed languages, it would eliminate the majority of those causing the "heat" in the various outlets.


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...they may not take action against the likes of GLB and Blitz. We don't know yet.
Do you have any proof that Steve Jobs is wrong, and that they will take action* against any company who is 100% following the rules of the ToS.


*I have no idea what action you are referring to.  There is no legal action possible.  If the ToS is violated, Apple simply will not publish the App in question, they are not and will not and can not sue you.


I seem to be missing something.  Could somebody please explain to me why a publisher should not be allowed to pick and choose what software they decide to invest time and money into and not only publish it, but distribute it and promote it?  Like it or not, this is what people are crying about.

Offline Ian Price

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Could somebody please explain to me why a publisher should not be allowed to pick and choose what software they decide to invest time and money into and not only publish it, but distribute it and promote it?  Like it or not, this is what people are crying about.

I'm not sure that is what people are cryting about tbh. I think that it's being told what they can and can't make the software with. Nobody has complained about the content of the software at all.

Your example earlier of being told to dig a ditch by your boss doessn't hold water (:P) - it's not about the ditch itself, it's about the tools used to dig the ditch in the first place. If your boss told you to buy a Slazenger size 16 pick-axe to do the job when you already own a Reebok size 14 (that you've owned for years and is comfortbale and reliable as hell), then you'd complain to your boss. That's all the moaning is. You are blowing this out of all proportion. You aren't an Apple employee are you? ;) :P

This matter seems to have been settled by Gernot, in that GLBasic is safe and sound (for now, anyway).
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Offline doimus

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Seriously how old are you?

I'm 31. Architect by profession. Worked few years as a game designer on several titles for PC (casual portals), Nintendo DS, Wii and Sony PSP. I am quite informed about each publisher's TOS and requirements.

Does this make me more qualified to participate in this discussion?


Now, let's continue....

This isn't about whether you are trying to publish a porn game or not, but whether the publisher is dictating you HOW you should develop your product.

Console publishing behemoths like Nintendo and Sony require you to have their expensive devkits, agree to NDA's that disallow you to even discuss stuff about their consoles and development process, but none, NONE of them places requirements on WHAT OS or language you should use for development. Nintendo's own bloody devkit installs Cygwin on Windows!

They don't care HOW you developed the game as long as you're registered developer!
Many GBA games were actually developed with unlicensed dev software by licensed developers.
Some DS programmers I've met consider official Nintendo DS libraries crappy and have developed their own routines which allow them to do their work easier. Some of those routines are written in ARM assembly and some are written in Python!

Unity game engine runs on PC, Mac, Wii, PS3, Xbox360 and it ran on iPhone until this stupid prohibition.

Casual PC publishers have all kinds of ridiculous requirements, but as long as your game works on their test configurations and conforms to their view of what PC game should look like, they don't care HOW you developed it. There are games on BigFish that are developed in BlitzBasic, C++ with SDL, C++ with DirectX, even exe-wrapped Flash games!

And what Apple wants?
If they wanted to improve general quality of apps in the appstore, they should've made minimum app price at $4.99, increased yearly developer membership from $99 to $1499 and be done with it. Lots of script kiddies would be scared away by that and the developers would be left alone to do their job any way they like.

But no, Apple wants you to drop Microsoft. Apple wants you to drop Google. Apple wants you to drop Adobe, Linux, scripting tools. Apple wants you to develop only using Apple. Apple DOES NOT WANT YOU TO THINK DIFFERENT!

What's next? Apple bans all game engines on OSX and only allows pure Obj-C? Apple bans Python and only allows Applescript?
Apple bans Photoshop and only allows GIMP for raster image manipulation (see how stupid THAT sounds)?
« Last Edit: 2010-Apr-14 by doimus »

Offline Kuron

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This isn't about whether you are trying to publish a porn game or not, but whether the publisher is dictating you HOW you should develop your product.
This is what you are complaining about though: You seem to think a publisher has no right to pick and choose what they want to publish.

Publishers are picky.  They have ways they want something done.  This is the way it generally works.  When I worked for Microprose, I had a little creative input, but I was a contracted employee and didn't have a lot of say in what tools I used.  The same when I worked at Martin (now Lockheed Martin), HP, GTE and a half dozen ofter tech companies I could name. 

Heck, back in the late 90s, I had a trilogy of 3D DOS games that were selling well here in the states.  I was also running a shareware distribution company at the time and I had retail space for our floppies at every Rite Aid, and other chains in a three state area.  I knew marketing.  But, it wasn't easy to market shareware to the UK back then.  The main online distribution was still AOL and CompuServe, and the UK were paying outrageous access fees and didn't have unlimited access.  Not to mention sending the registered version on floppies overseas and having them arrive undamaged after being held up in customs for weeks at a time.  I signed with Springfield Publishing to handle my UK interests back then.  Even for games that were already done, established and actually selling, there was much I had to change to suit Springfield, including having my artist redo some graphics as the pixelated blood spatter was too extreme for their market.  Yes it was a pain, but they were the publisher and they know their market better than me.  Afterall, that is the reason I was going to them, for their expertise in their market.  And they had done quite well for others using the same 3D engine as me.  It was an easy decision for me to make.

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Console publishing behemoths like Nintendo and Sony require you to have their expensive devkits, agree to NDA's that disallow you to even discuss stuff about their consoles and development process, but none, NONE of them places requirements on WHAT OS or language you should use for development.
Why would they?  Those requirements are generally put in place by your publisher, not the console maker.

Unfortunately, in this case Apple is the "console" maker and is the publisher, even though many can't fathom that and can't differentiate between the two.  The problem people are griping about is caused by Apple "the publisher" but they are directing the complaints towards Apple the "console maker". 

What people are griping about has nothing to do with the hardware side of the iPhone.  There are not any limitations.  The problem people have is with Apple's publishing policies, of which there are limitations and requirements, and rightfully so.  Apple is no different than any other publisher in this matter.

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They don't care HOW you developed the game as long as you're registered developer!
Why would they?

The App Store is no different than dealing with any publisher targeting any platform.  Any publisher has rules you have to adbide by in order to be published..

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Unity game engine runs on PC, Mac, Wii, PS3, Xbox360 and it ran on iPhone until this stupid prohibition.
I do not have or use Unity, but I do know this isn't the first time they have had to rewrite things to comply with Apple's ToS and it won't be the last time.

Quote
Casual PC publishers have all kinds of ridiculous requirements, but as long as your game works on their test configurations and conforms to their view of what PC game should look like, they don't care HOW you developed it.
Yes, but the average game being sold via any of the casual portals isn't aimed at extremely limited hardware, it is aimed at PCs/Macs.  I can't help but wonder how people would be griping if the casual game publisher also made the hardware the games had to run on?

Yes casual game publishers are not overly picky about what language is used to produce the games they sell.  Although I have mixed feelings about that (and casual game publishers in general), the casual publishers have very high Q&A standards and their games target very forgiving platforms, unlike embedded devices which are not very forgiving.  However, I can remember when any publisher that represented games made by indie developers would rarely touch something if it wasn't written in C++.  The "any development languages is olay" idea is fairly new, and really doesn't carry over very well to limited/embedded devices where there is no margin for error.

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And what Apple wants?
If they wanted to improve general quality of apps in the appstore, they should've made minimum app price at $4.99, increased yearly developer membership from $99 to $1499 and be done with it. Lots of script kiddies would be scared away by that and the developers would be left alone to do their job any way they like.
This would work now, and it would work very well.  But, it would not have worked in the beginning.  The iPhone isn't that old, and besides creating a device that was extremely unique when it first came out, Apple also had to not only create a market for the device itself, but they had to create a market for the software for the device.  This is why they had to create the App Store and act as the publisher for people wanting to get their software on the device.

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Apple wants you to drop Microsoft
This isn't true, and Apple would be dead if it wasn't for Microsoft, but if it was true, how is that a bad thing?  Any company wants people to use their products instead of the competitors.  In general, I think dropping Microsoft for anything is a good idea.  Unfortunately, Microsoft is like a mother-in-law: Whether you like the beast or not, you have to learn to live with it, because it is going to be there lurking around the corner no matter what and it will devour you any chance it gets.

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Apple wants you to drop Google
Not true, but again, how is this bad?  Google is the largest company who only exists to track internet usage data on every computer user they can.

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Apple wants you to drop Adobe, Linux, scripting tools. Apple wants you to develop only using Apple. Apple DOES NOT WANT YOU TO THINK DIFFERENT!
This isn't Miracle on 34th Street.  In the real world Macy's isn't going to make a profit by telling their customers to go to Gimbels.  Nor would Microsoft turn a profit by telling people to use competitors products, Apple wouldn't turn a profit by sending customers to competitors, etc.

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Apple bans Photoshop and only allows GIMP for raster image manipulation (see how stupid THAT sounds)?
Since Photoshop is an Adobe product, then I am all for it.  However, there are much better alternatives that GIMP.  Paint Shop Pro was great until Corel bought it and destroyed it, but there are other tools out there that are good.

Out of all of those griping, how many of you have made the changes to your iPhone games so they will actually work properly with multitasking and the new dual core processors?  Anybody?  Please do not tell me you also expect Apple to quit releasing new versions of the iPhone because you don't want to update your software to support improvements in the hardware.

Out of all of these companies like Unity, Adobe, how many have updated their languages and third-party libs to support multitasking and the new dual core processors?  Or do they also expect Apple to quit releasing new versions of the iPhone because they can't keep up with the hardware changes.  Unlike Adobe, Apple's techs have actually tested Adobe's offerings on the new multitasking platform. 

Given that Apple's does actually believe in innovation (unlike most companies), and part of that innovation also includes the innovation of hardware, and Apple's hardware products usually see at least one major hardware update per year, perhaps using the tools Apple recommends to be able to keep your software for their devices current, compliant and competitive is actually a good thing.  Apple does know their own market and platform better than any of us.  That is unless you enjoy purposely releasing software that may not work properly on the latest hardware devices. 

This isn't like developing for Windows where things rarely change over the years and backwards compatibility is a must.  Smart Phones and portable media devices are rapidly changing technology and if you can't keep up with the necessary hardware changes, you really shouldn't be trying to develop for the devices.  At the very least, you should not be trying to use Apple as a publisher if you want to release substandard and outdated software.

I think Apple (as a publisher) has been very fair.  A whole bunch of apps are going to be removed from the App Store very soon because they are too outdates.  Shouldn't be a major issue for anybody because if the software was any good, and people actually used/played it on a regular basis, they will happily buy a new version.  Apple users are like that.


Offline Kitty Hello

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I think we all should calm down a bit here.
Like it or not, legal or not, true fact is, we can't do anything against Apple's rules if we want to App Store our games. so any complaining and talk about that won't help us but only start a quarrel, which I don't really like.
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Offline codegit

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I agree, one of the reasons I stay away from the Blitz forums is that its mostly people shouting at each other. The GLBASIC forums dont have this type of degenerate person, it would be HORRIBLE if we started having these problems. Please moderators stop this from happening.  :'(
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