GLBasic forum

Ok, I have been thinking about this.

Gernot mentioned that he may request a small payment to cover his costs for keeping his platform test equipment up to date. This sounded pretty fair to me but what's the general consensus?

What worries me is that Gernot does not get any income for working on extra features for GLBasic, its not just bug fixes I am talking about but true code that saves me and you time. The new GUI is a good example of this.

Should a small annual payment be optional? Well I think it should because not everyone has the spare cash lying around, also if you want to donate then you should be allowed to.

Ok, please vote and let everyone know how you feel.

updates should been free (example from v10.0 to v10.1), but version upgrade (example from v10 to v11) is no problemo to cost.

my vote is No

Reason:
I fear, further costs for major releases will frighten off many people. I agree, it's a pity, that Gernot will not earn anything for new features. But take only a small look in the world of software development:

Visusal C# Express + Xna --> free
Mingw or Visual C++ Express + several bibs for game programming --> free
Java --> free
...

Of course, I don't know any other environment supporting so many platforms like GLBasic does, so imho it's worth to pay for, but ... see "reason"
It's not a question of logic, but of psychology, I guess.

Quote from: spacefractal on 2012-Mar-27
updates should been free (example from v10.0 to v10.1), but version upgrade (example from v10 to v11) is no problemo to cost.

That system wouldn`t really work very well. What if version 11 is release, but Im in still version 10 and I find a bug, and report it. Which version gets fixed ? If version 10 gets fixed then you need to maintain 2 (and more) versions. If you upate version 11, then minor bug updates no longer are free.

Magix (music maker and such) do not fix any bugs at all. Bugfix=new version = pay extra.
Disgusting.

Here at work we have some pay-per-year contracts for support. Maybe I start sending newsletters to registered customers when new versions are available and insert a donate button for the upgrade, which would be free, though.

That happens in many apps as well as Kitty wrote. GLBasic did have about 20 minor releases to mainstreme glbasic, which is really good. So its does not do often to do a v11.

Howover alternative the GUI version could of course cost some money to get that extension when its is out of beta. Its dosen't need to been free and there would been no version conflict.

Even an optional donate button would be good IMHO.

I'm fine with whatever method you decide.

You could give GLBasic away for free (there's a free version now correct?).
And, convert to an in-app-purchase payment model!
You want 3d commands?  $20
Polyvector? $20  -   Sound? $20  -  File IO? $20  -  Font Editor? $20
Ha, only kidding, but I can see a time where desktop apps do this!

You need more money, understandable.
You could offer your expertise in a consulting fashion.
There are (maybe) those of us who would pay for one-on-one advice and code suggestions for our games.
Especially at crunch time.

Offer GLBasic totally for free (as an optional payment type) and when users are finished their game, they get you and your company to host the game, and you go through Apple and the other app stores and handle the submissions and compiling etc (or share up a Mac and allow remote access to it and get the user to compile himself).  Charge an extra 20%, so the user gets 50% (Apple for example).  Problem is there may be a lot of work for little payback.  A fully automated system would help.  Advantage to user:  No need to buy Mac, Apple Dev Fee (and other dev fees), App submission head-aches, etc.  And/or a PC app store, host the various GLBasic games for a fee.

Merchandising?!  GLBasic hat?  I'd buy one!  I don't get beat up enough!  :D

Donations may work.  Not sure how much money you would collect.  I'd chip in.

Pay for a feature.  Do you really want a new feature added? 
Offer (or start a bounty) Gernot $200+ and he may consider it! ha - Really I would so do this!
[Edit]  It's like a donation but with an incentive. 
Ha, right now I would donate $50 to remove that annoying splash screen that always seems to be in the way!  :P

50$ for a slash screen option. Deal! :P

Quote from: Slydog on 2012-Mar-27

Ha, right now I would donate $50 to remove that annoying splash screen that always seems to be in the way!  :P

I will split that cost with you Slydog, I thought it was just me on my computer that seems to have the splash screen up for 15 seconds after you have opened the project :) how about a check box for registered users in a settings menu to turn splash on/off?

Personally I would go for the major upgrade fee like when V11 comes out and can build directly to iOS on a PC or a new platform is added. Most standard bugs are resolved before a major update is done and its only the big new feature that introduces new issues.

I use quite a few programs that give you free updates for a year and then you have to renew and they don't have the option that GLB has of a functioning free version that will let you test paid features before committing to the purchase

the splash screen in editor is skipable by a click. So no real issue for me at all.

The donate button is allways nice for those that whant, and yes most standard bugs would been fixed before the next major upgrade anyway.

Quentin made a very important point.

Quote from: Quentin on 2012-Mar-27
...take only a small look in the world of software development:

Visual C# Express + Xna --> free
Mingw or Visual C++ Express + several bibs for game programming --> free
Java --> free

When it comes to something like PC specific app development a combination of Visual C# and Xna for free is a sweet kicks ass option. However! As soon as you include compiling for multiple mobile platforms the prices of development tools go up, way up.

GLBasic is cheaper than the competition in the category of multiple mobile platform compilation while generally offering a lot more platforms to compile for than other packages. It has those two advantages. It has a market niche.

To follow the industry trend and gain more interest perhaps PC-only compilation could be free, including all the premium features. Charge for multiple platform compilation instead.

Also, like I mentioned in another thread, promotion is a major issue. Quite a chunk of the high cost of the other multi-mobile dev tools goes into funding marketing. I'm not suggesting GLBasic does that for many, many reasons I don't think I need to go into. It is important to make contact with new users though. I think promotion could really use a boost (from us, the users)

I think I am right in saying that all (if not a vast majority) of platforms have free development environments available to them, excluding developer fees for publishing like iOS for example. Apple has Xcode, Windows/Phone the Visual Express range, Android SDK etc etc. Obviously all of them are tied to there respective platforms & converting your project to run on another platform requires a lot of work if not a complete rewrite in some cases.

GLBasic certainly has a niche in it's ability to target so many platforms with little or no modification to your code assuming you plan ahead that you will be targeting more than one platform & each ones strengths or weaknesses.

There are so many options available regarding purchasing GLBasic but finding one that suits the majority might be the hard part. Other than the current option of free Windows/Linux/Mac with 3D/Net/Inline + Mobile available as a purchase there are ones like Wampus mentioned (free PC inc Premium & charge for Multi), or similar to what Slydog mentioned pay per feature or even platform for example.

The latter example is good in the respect that if someone wants to target just iOS or Android they can just purchase the respective parts. However, implementing that model as in pricing etc might be difficult from the point of view of just how much to charge for each part, which parts do you split out of the core i.e 3D/Net etc, the IDE knowing what the user can or cannot target & so on. Also how you market it can be problematic if it is not clear exactly what you are getting for free or paying for. I have been on some sites in the past where I have had to place another order or download something else due to poor explanation of what was required for my needs.

Personally I am interested in PC/Linux/Android with inline at a later date when I learn more. iOS,  cannoo etc I have zero interest in due to not having the platforms to test them & have no interest in 3D or net either so the separate Modules would be perfect for me, but the current option of getting all with one payment does mean I do not have to worry or think exactly what I can or cannot do.

In essence everyone will have their own ideals on how or what they want from GLBasic & purchasing options.

Lee

One thing that would need to be done if compulsory or voluntary payment chosen is perhaps make all betas available for testing (and possibly feedback) before the proper release...

Excellent idea. Sort of VIP licenses.

Indeed - that way product quality is assured !

I think YES, it´s obvious, no?¿... I don´t know any application you don´t pay for Updates... I think after 3 years it´s hour to pay something, no?¿...

I think pay a little for a year can be good for both parts...

Let's be honest with ourselves. The big boys may be giving away freebies, but these are usually versions with very limited features and support. And even then, their motivation is to get developers hooked on, eventually buying the full versions for really big bucks. And that's not even taking into consideration the platform constraints.

Our dear Gernot has tirelessly developed and refined this wonderful cross-platform tool over the last tens years, since its early days as DiNGS Game Basic, and have most graciously offered lifetime upgrades and support at no extra cost. While I'm very sure that GLBasic is thriving, and will continue to have a growing user-base, exising users also continue to benefit from all the new work put into it by him. And let's not forget that this is not simply a software application, but a commercially viable, revenue-generating development tool. We make money from it, and the new additions and improvements make it even easier for us to make more money. Is it not fair to want to give something back without being asked?

So, IMHO, charge away, Gernot! And if the licensing terms stand in the way, seal GLBasic at version 11, and introduce a new product. GLXBasic?

Anyway its Gernots product then its actuelly him that set the price he set of the product, then its up to us we want it or not.

this instead of Glbasic v11, its could just call Glbasic 2 v1.0 as well.

But its all up to him, what he does  :good:

Quote from: Kitty Hello on 2012-Mar-27
Here at work we have some pay-per-year contracts for support. Maybe I start sending newsletters to registered customers when new versions are available and insert a donate button for the upgrade, which would be free, though.

I dunno why but I assumed GLB, plus sells of mobile apps etc. was your full time, self employed job.

I think a donate button through PayPal for optional upgrade payments for major version changes is the way to go. Perhaps with more than one donate button - each one for different values.

Quote from: Nathan on 2012-Mar-28
I dunno why but I assumed GLB, plus sells of mobile apps etc. was your full time, self employed job.

That would be plenty enough.
... if I lived in central Africa... :(

(http://www.karnevalskostueme.de/Kostueme/Kostueme/Negerkostuem.gif)

I must acknowledge, that im one of the guys, that voted with "no". :giveup:
Of cause i thing Gernot deserve to get paid for his really great work! :nw: But i think the price (and the free updates and even upgrades) is one of the points that make GLBasic even more attractive. If you would charge a fee for V11 i and some others wont buy it again (i just got glb in februar and wont pay again just 2 months later and i just code for fun, didnt publish a single game). So you would split up GLBasic in 2 Products, that would need to get individual updates and bugfixes. Btw when i brought GLB "free Updates" were announced as part of the product; i knew, that i would always have an up-to-date dev-kit. If this would change now (just 2 months later), i really would feel scammed. I mean, if i would make big money i would be proud to make a voluntary donation, but if i would get asked to pay something again, that i already paid, it would just feel wrong and i dont think it would be good for GLB if new customers would knew that there "contract" with Gernot could get changed at any time in future just by him alone. Maybe next he would charge a fee for every published game, made with GLB?

I could live with paying for a "GUI addon", that woudl be totally fair. Pay for new features, but dont pay again for old one (+there updates/bugfixes!). But in the past we had 3D, Net,... addons and Gernot merged it all together to "premium" now, so i guess he gets more money from selling premium to everyone than just selling everyone just the parts that they need...

Btw if some of you want to donate and give back some of your money that you earned with GLBasic, than why you dont just donate something? I mean you know his paypal address...

I dont think an annual support fee would be on a set date, rather a year after you purchased it, so in your case, Feb 13.

A developer can actually have a large healthy user base, who expect lots of updates/new features and earn the developer very little money for a lot of extra effort. This was the case of Blitzbasic and it eventually died feature wise because it was only worth the developers while to bring out a completely new product rather than support/update an old one.

The general consensus so far, seems to be an 'optional' payment on major versions. Which for me would be very acceptable. Although the VIP license idea sound great too! ;)

IMO...


Some time ago... one guy called Markus Persson starts a development project called Minecraft... for "only" 20€... and promise actualizations free for live... How much money have in his bank account??????


I think the best solution for increase sales are publicity, publicity, publicity... take part on many forums about (indie) developement are possible... lost many time every day on social networks like twitter, facebook, etc... mouth to mouth are another best solution...

Make an annual contest (best app) in combination with hardware resseller like hardcoregamer.net, and offer to win any device...

Increase a bit the addons form 20 to 40€... are another option.


The idea is convert GLB as a UNIQUE, CHEAP, EFFECTIVE, EASY TO LEARN sdk for developers... over another "solutions" like gamemaker, etc...


PS Annual upgrade/payment like Adobe, Office?????..... No, please.

PS2 Try it... search on Youtube for "glbasic".... I obtain 227 results.... and try for gamemaker... 120.000 aprox... Understand where to go?

In regards to motivation, the idea that GLBasic developers need investors in this product and perhaps a forecast funding budget would be more suitable where the spending can be used on marketing and education with the ol' donation meter. Seems to be the trend now-a-days for all sort of new and old projects. ;)

Examples:
http://www.kickstarter.com/
http://8bitfunding.com/

Hi, I will try to explain my opinion as better as I can:

About two years ago, I decided to try to develop a game, in my free time, as a hobby. I decided to rescue a very old idea about a game that I started to develop long time ago, with my old ZX Spectrum  :)

I love my work, I love to make computer programs, but I usually have to develop database related applications, or web pages...   that kind of things are the only ones wich makes me earn some money...  :whip:   but I needed to make something different, something fun that I really could enjoy, as a hobby.

I'm a developer, I'm alone, like all people here, I think...   I can't make a video game like Tekken or Unreal Tournament... I know. I have not enought free time or money. And remember: I'm alone.

My game can't be a big production like Metal Gear Solid or Warcraft, It will never be published as a commercial game for Nintendo devices or Playstation 3. In addition, I have not enought money to pay all the fees and buy all development kits and tools needed to try to develop it for PSP or Nintendo DS...
How many could cost for me all the things needed to publish my game for PSP??? 14.000€????   may be more????   :shit:

I wanted to do a game that runs under mobile devices...  Most of game players love to play in a mobile device.

But... the option of publish for Apple's App Store appeared to be easier and less expensive than others... iOS market was something possible for me...  The Apple "ecosystem" is widely known and It's easy for the end user...   with luck, I could obtain a little bit of money to pay the costs of the Apple Developer annual subscription, maybe also my MacBook...   and my iPad...     with so much luck, I know, but it is possible...

I like iOS devices and I chosen iOS finally as preferred target platform for my game, but I would like to make it multiplatform if it is possible.

Apple have its own language, IDE and tools (XCode/Cocoa/Objective C) but I was searching something easier, faster and different than XCode...  But It had to be a good development environment: stable, rock solid and easy.

At the other side BASIC language is very well known for me...  I had a Sinclair ZX Spectrum XDDDDDDD

I was continuously reading information about all kind of devices and each respective development tools, languages and environments... all the information that I found was plenty of royalties, taxes, fees, annual licences, obscure terms and conditions, and more...     :rtfm:
I hate that kind of products, with that kind of conditions... I wouldn't like to rent my game. I don't like when others rent his software...     :rant:    I need to feel that I pay for something that will be mine, completely, not only for a certain time.

Finally, I found GLBasic:  Easy to learn, easy to use...   fast...   royalte free...  free lifetime upgrades...   low cost...   only one pay for the premium version...   With it I had all the needed to start my development for iOS... and hey: IT IS BASIC LANGUAGE!!!!!!    :nw:

I purchased the premium version of GLBasic, and I was surprised because of its quality and all the platforms that it supports.

Sometimes, I found errors in GLBasic (under my iPad, for example) that were a really big problem, but the continuous updates fixed all. I need to feel my game solid and stable.

I like it, I really like GLBasic...  as is, just now...   because of that, I would not like that GLBasic would dissapear...    As a programmer, I think that the work to obtain the actual version of GLBasic is unvaluable (THANKS GERNOT!!! REALLY!!!)...    I can imagine the effort that involves, and I think that the hard programmers work must be enought paid, ever...  but I liked also the conditions that convinced me when I bought GLBasic...  I wouldn't like to see the original nature of GLBasic changed...

Sincerely: I don't like and I couldn't pay for updates or error fixing in a programming language. Remember: This is a hobby for me, I can't earn money developing games... I started to program my game two years ago, and haven't anything playable (until). I had to pay my iPad, my MacBook, GLBasic, and my Apple Developers Program Subscription each year, but I haven't enought time to finish my game.

But I could pay a little price for an UPGRADE, because I understand to Gernot, I don't like that GLBasic versions and development could be stopped. I understand that all people needs earn money working, I understand the effort behind each GLBasic's update, and I know the industry tactics: Gernot must have enought money to buy a new Mac if he wants to use XCode 4.3 now, and he must feels his work compensated with money, like all of us.

I hate Apple because of that kind of "movements" (Lion needs a certain Mac and XCode 4.3 needs Lion), but I love Apple because of let some little developers to publish an application throught his servers and market, and obtain revenues in a very easy way...   If they are lucky.

I think that one big problem is the long time needed to obtain a finished and good quality game, and its revenues, when the most of us are game developers in our free time.

Solutions? An exceptional payment for an upgrade could be OK for me, publicity for GLBasic to obtain more buyers (like Hark0 said)...   Anything that could bring new buyers and revenues to GLBasic... We have to help the "platform", I think. Anything without changing its free bug fixing/update nature... (it is a programming language!!! I need it error free!!!) XDDDDDDDD

I said this with the best intemptions. Sorry if my english is not very well sometimes...

Regards.

Quote from: mentalthink on 2012-Mar-28I don´t know any application you don´t pay for Updates...

I do, and did choose it over other options just because of lifetime free updating. The application is modular and there are tons of modules, which themselves are updated for free as well; the majority of them, which are the juicier ones, are not included in the "main packages" and thus provide another ton of revenue, but that doesn't mean that the main packages are unusable or barebones by themselves. Maybe something like that could be devised if there is any need for this project to become more financially profitable.

I start to like the premium idea, where you pay a small fee/year and get access to pre-release software and maybe source code for some projects.

I remember when deciding to buy GLBasic, I asked about the cost of updates.
I was told that SO FAR, there have never been a fee for the previous updates, and probably the same for the future updates.  That was a nice change from my other software experiences.
But, I was never promised there wouldn't ever be an update fee, and I checked the main feature and purchase page, and nowhere does it mention lifetime free updates. (that I found)

But I can see where people may have bought GLBasic with this assumption and expectation.
And, people may have different financial situations, where an upgrade fee would be undesirable.

But (again) I have to mostly agree with Hark0's ideas.
Say GLBasic has sold 100 copies at $100 (or 90 EUR) for a total of $10,000 (over the 10 or so years it has been around).  I have no idea really how many copies were sold, just going off of the number of unique people in the forums.  Gernot could expect/get everyone of these people to kick in an extra $20, for only a $2000 campaign.

But, if we all were to promote GLBasic (on social and programming sites for example), and we were to double the sales, or gather 100 new customers, that would earn Gernot another $10,000.  So our 'upgrade fee' could be just to try to get others to notice and appreciate the powers of GLBasic.  Then at some point it should reach a critical mass, where it can't be stopped, and people everywhere are recommending GLBasic to the new members of the game programming community.

I have left a couple posts on Stack Exchange talking about the merits of GLBasic, when asked for an easy to use game programming SDK.  Now, if we all did this, regularly, this could help us all.  Imagine the point where Gernot can make enough money from GLBasic where he can quit his day job, and spend his time adding new features and squashing bugs.

As mentioned, we could start with a game programming competition. Game programming has exploded in the past year or two, and I bet you could get a few new customers just doing that.

I'm totally against marketing and publicizing... why? Because that stuff only serves the business purpose (ie. selling game engine) and NOT users (ie. developing games). Look what GarageGames and Unity communities look like.... total wreckage.

If Gernot's idea is to live off GLBasic only, and is willing to work 24h a day on upkeep (somebody will have to answer all those "can I make MMORPG with GLB, can I??" questions  :D), then by all means, promote it and all that, but if the idea is to just keep it afloat, I'm all for premium model.
That's basically a "1000 true fans" philosophy. Find your loyal base and charge them enough to keep you afloat.
That's how small bookstores or art galeries, or small music bands work. And that's exactly what Apple did in the 90s. Granted, Apple in 2000s has A LOT more money but they must allocate much more resources into keeping the machinery working. It's completely different beast and business practice.

Or you make a "service" for GLB-Games for iDevices, so everybody can publish his game for iPads and iPhones and so on (for people without a Mac and developerlicence!!!)
You earn some $ (maybe 10% ?) and get some money for further projects, like GLB-Developing...

Quote from: Kitty Hello on 2012-Mar-29
I start to like the premium idea, where you pay a small fee/year and get access to pre-release software and maybe source code for some projects.

Pay fee each year (like apple) to get pre-release and snippeds?

And... what kind of version are "PRE-release?

:P

PS Like Dacarsoft I'm alone too... and I "expend" 2 hours time of my family every night for develope... We are legion of "alone" people  =D

Quote from: matchy on 2012-Mar-29
In regards to motivation, the idea that GLBasic developers need investors in this product and perhaps a forecast funding budget would be more suitable where the spending can be used on marketing and education with the ol' donation meter. Seems to be the trend now-a-days for all sort of new and old projects. ;)

Examples:
http://www.kickstarter.com/
http://8bitfunding.com/

Crowfunding are very popular alternatives to get $... If the project are interesting...

I think GLB it's one of this projects.

;)


PS please take note about my votation: please change my NO vote to No but maybe if my circumstances change...

To "relax" post ... little intro like Trainspoitting movie:

Buy a PC Buy GLBasic Learn GLBasic Compile Corrects errors Compile Buy a Mac Buy an iPhone Pay a license Compile for IOS Corrects errors Compile Prepare a site Prepare banners Prepare manuals Application goes to the store Squeeze your ass Get the mail endorsement Activate the application Publish Squeeze your ass Watch the bank account Look back at the account Renew the license ...

Buffff  :D

Quote from: doimus on 2012-Mar-29
Look what GarageGames and Unity communities look like.... total wreckage.

Just out of interest, what do you mean by this?

I am happy to pay a yearly fee no problem.
However, what I would really be happy to pay for is additional modules.

I went indie, full time about 6 months ago and have had 3 very lucrative apps to write, however, the downside is that I haven't been able to use GLBasic as these were business apps and not games, and therefore I  could not use IOS or android functionality needed, e.g. UI Kit, google maps etc. without writing my own objective c libraries and the thing that won me all the contracts was the speed of development and being able to come in cheaper than the other competitors.  Imagine the speed with glbasic!

I would love it if I could use GlBasic for this (without having to write libraries myself).

That said, for games, Glbasic all the way, unfortunately at the moment games are not  making  me a wage, apps are  :'(

Quote from: Nathan on 2012-Mar-29

Quote from: doimus on 2012-Mar-29
Look what GarageGames and Unity communities look like.... total wreckage.

Just out of interest, what do you mean by this?

Too much noise, too little signal.
I lurked around Unity forums back when they were Mac only engine. It was similar to GLB, with developers responding and users actually helping. Now it's mostly "Can it be done in Unity?" or "Unity vs Unreal vs Whatever". The quality of the community has deteriorated rapidly with user base increase.
With that comes the necessity to hire moderators, product evangelists etc. whose only job is to mentor the user base.
And most importantly, once you reach "critical" user base, you're officially in the race with the competition. Look what Unity did to Garagegames Torque... And with increased competition comes the need for faster product improvement and that means hiring more people again, and that means more costs.

And sooner than later, you're back in the same situation: you need more money to sustain yourself. And then again you need to either expand or increase value. That's economics 101.

Oh, don't worry doimus. The evolution of Unity does not have to be the evolution of GLBasic. They are different creatures with different philosophies behind them.