Another programming language

[fuzzy70]

I am thinking of learning another language for the sole purpose of creating my utilities like level editors etc. One such utility I need to create is for reading amiga disks (emulated ADF files not originals) as I am planning on making a remake of a classic amiga/st game. I have been toying with the idea of remaking this game for a couple of years now but Blitz3d (my previous language) was not ideally suited to the task thanks to the game being a strategy type with a lot of data that needs monitoring & updating. Thanks to GLB I think it is possible thanks to its vastly superior TYPES system with functions & arrays of TYPES compared to Blitz3d's very basic TYPE system.

I have managed to read the save game disk & work out how the data is stored which enables me to edit it so effectively cheating the game so I can grab info, graphics etc to build up a framework as well as how the game ticks internally. Btw I have completed the game numerous times many years ago when it came out on the Amiga but that was long ago  .

All this was done with Blitz3d & a hex editor & was far from ideal but they done the job, well nearly as still have about 20% or so left to do. What I would like is to wrap up the utils into 1 program with a graphical interface so I no longer need the hex editor & Blitz, same goes for any other tools/utils I have written or will write in future.

I am looking for a visual language so I can design the UI without having the hassle of coding it then just assign the code to the relevant elements, also power/speed is not top of the list as I will only be creating tools/utils & not games with it as I will use GLB for them.

Three spring to mind at the moment, Visual C++, Visual C# & Visual Basic, all of which are free which helps  . I have discounted C++ due to the time required to learn it & as previously stated I do not need the power etc that C++ provides.

C# I have no idea about & would like to hear from any of you that have any experience in that language as to how difficult it is to learn.

Visual Basic I used back in 2005 when I wrote my diabetic app for my pocket pc & that was done by reading only the commands I needed to use & nothing more. If I looked at the code now I can safely say that most of it would not make any sense to me so would have to start from the beginning again. Also knowing Microsoft & their uncanny ability to make the next release either incompatible or substantially different to the previous version means starting afresh anyway.

I am not knocking DDGUI that comes with GLB, but like I said earlier I want to spend more time coding the program & not have to worry about coding in UI co-ords & such like, less time spent doing the util means more time to spend writing games in GLB.

Any views on C# would be appreciated as well as any other visual languages that I have missed, keeping in mind that the Visual range from Microsoft comes with the huge .NET library helping to cut the amount of written code down.

Also do not ask what the game is I thinking about doing as there have been numerous posts on the web about a remake of it, all of which vanished without a trace & I do not want to be part of that statistic. Plus I want to write/convert other utils so that one is just an example  .

Lee

[okee]

There's also Purebasic although not free, and it has a few Form Creators such as
PureForm: http://gnozal.ucoz.com/#PureFORM

[Sixth Sense]

If you are looking for a visual language you could try the demos from the clickteam's range of products and see if any of them suits your purpose.


http://www.clickteam.com/website/usa/

[Wampus]

If you have experience with Java then C# might suit. I've started experimenting with C# because I heard it was more suitable to Java programmers than C++. Also, those .NET libraries really are so useful.

[fuzzy70]

If you happen to have a Pascal/Delphi past, you should also look into FastPascal/Lazarus...

cheers
Ocean

I have not used Pascal for quite some time but I will look into that thanks as might me a good chance the core language is still the same.

There's also Purebasic although not free, and it has a few Form Creators such as
PureForm: http://gnozal.ucoz.com/#PureFORM

I do own Purebasic, other than the GUI tool that that comes with it, which is well out of date with the language & you lose time getting what it generates to work before coding anything  . Will check out PureFORM though & see what thats about.

If you are looking for a visual language you could try the demos from the clickteam's range of products and see if any of them suits your purpose.

http://www.clickteam.com/website/usa/

I always thought of Clickteams products as being more visual "Click to create games" type of thing, then again I have not really looked at there full range to see what else they offer. So something else to check out 

If you have experience with Java then C# might suit. I've started experimenting with C# because I heard it was more suitable to Java programmers than C++. Also, those .NET libraries really are so useful.

While I am not an experienced Java coder I can find my way around it without to many problems & I have books for moments when I get stuck. Some of the commands I do not understand fully but I do get the syntax of the language. So I may just download the Visual C# package anyway & play around with it seeing as its free, & yes the .NET libraries are from what I remember from my limited VB usage could come in handy.


Thanks all for your input, very much appreciated. I now have some downloading & playing to do so will try them all out & see which feels intuitive & comfortable to use. 

Lee

[fuzzy70]

Lee,

please keep us in the loop about your findings

Ocean

Will do Ocean, have downloaded all mentioned above except the Clickteam stuff as not to sure that will do what I require at the moment.

Thanks to Okee I had quite realised how old my version of Purebasic was, lets just say more than 3 years out of date  . However the PureForm link proved very good indeed as not only was there the GUI creator but other toys like another IDE, plugins to handle ZIPS natively in code etc which code prove to be very useful.

C#, have downloaded & installed but not played with as yet, currently am messing about with FreePascal/Lazarus which is bringing some old coding memories back (some good. some not so good  ). Very handy that it is very compatible with TurboPascal as that was the language I started with on the PC when I moved over from the Amiga.

The Amiga I used to program in assembly & I did start on the PC but what with the hassle back then of different GFX cards, sound cards etc it was not as easy, the Amiga was a known quantity regarding hardware whereas PC's where, for want of a better phrase "All over the place".

Will update this post with my findings & conclusions as I go along

Lee

[Hatonastick]

Yes, I was a little confused about your earlier posts about PureBASIC.  I've always kept mine up to date and found that it's quite easy to make little utilities with -- not that I've tried making a level editor with it yet though.  As a long time C (and shorter time C++) programmer, even with a GUI library (unless you _really_ want to learn Windows API) it will be a lot of work.  Honestly you should be looking as high (not low) as possible when it comes to a programming language that you want to use to whack out things like level editors, since you will want to spend more time working on your games than utilities.  Well, unless you are a procrastinator like me.  I usually end up spending more time making utilities and libraries.   However in the end you know what you want or need, all we can do is make suggestions and hope we help.  If you really want to go low(er) level as far as languages go, there isn't really anything stopping you, just that a number of guys on here have gone through this sort of thing before, ie. trying just about every programming language and development kit we can get our hands on for what ever reason -- and I'm one of those guys.  Nothing beats actually trying them all for yourself though.  Anyway hope you find what you are looking for!

[fuzzy70]

Thanks Hatonastick, that's one of the main reasons why I posted my question here on the GLB forum as seeing other peoples posts I noticed peoples references to other languages, also the friendliness of people here is another reason.

Like I said at the start I want to avoid low level languages if at all possible as I do not have the need for such power or speed etc. If I wanted to create the next Quake/Halo/Halflife etc then my head would still be buried in C/C++, DirectX/OpenGL books & such like but I have no interest in writing those genre of games. That is the reason why I purchased Blitz3D when it came out to try the 3D side of things at a higher level than C & it did not take long to discover that it was not my thing. The concepts of writing 3D games was not the problem & I understand the principles & techniques, I just didn't get any kind of kick or buzz from writing them so no point doing something I wasn't enjoying.

PureBasic I purchased about a year or 2 after Blitz & then things in life changed for a while like they do which left very little spare time for any programming or basically time for any pc related hobby including my music & graphics like Cinema4D & Lightwave. From what I have seen & read PureBasic is quite powerful, not in a game making sense but more of a application/tools/utilities creation type way. I just forgot all about it & that I had it  .

At the moment I am working my way round the Freepascal/Lazarus package which is proving to be a bit annoying at present. Not with the the Pascal part but with the Lazarus part, I had to check yesterday that I hadn't downloaded a earlier alpha version or something as quite frankly its a mess. A lot of the docs are so out of date in some areas & the directory structure is a mess at best. I gave up trying to get context sensitive help working even after numerous visits to the wiki & web searching as well as downloading docs in other formats from their site. Other annoyances are for example when you close down Lazarus it does not close down the project you are working on, so if you open up another source file either inside the app or from explorer it adds it to the previous project. I lost so many hours just trying to set up the IDE & getting frustrated that I nearly came close to saying "That's it, un-install & goodbye, thanks for wasting my time & hard drive space". I will persevere though as it looks like it has a lot to offer & deserves a chance.

I plan to give each of the languages a weeks trial & at the end sum up which one works better for me or could prove to be the most useful. I will take into account that obviously a week is short but in that time I can get a good idea or feel for the language & how comfortable I feel using it. I would rather have to do some extra work in a language that feels right & I understand than battle with another one that might provide an easier way of doing a certain task but not have a full understanding of how it works or why.

Last thing, the Windows API. I have read bits here & there regarding that & to me seems pretty straight forward. Anyone who has programmed an Amiga via it's Intuition (especially in Assembly) would appreciate that the WinAPI is not really that scary, not saying that it's easy but just not the hardest API I have come across

Lee

[fuzzy70]

Little update.

Lazarus has now been removed from my system. The docs, IDE etc was not getting on well with me, & the fact that programs that compiled fine without a problem in the native FPC IDE failed to compile in Lazarus (not all but 25% roughly) was the final straw. Seeing as Lazarus includes the same 2.4.4 FPC compiler, units etc as the stand alone FPC package it seem odd that I get stupid errors like "received longint, requires short" on some of the examples in Lazarus but not in FPC 

Those were with the examples & demos that came in the download as well, just to make it more annoying. I even went through the compiler options to check they were the same as the FPC ones & they was. 2 days spent trying to configure help, modify code that works perfectly in FPC etc is not my idea of fun or a productive way to develop anything. Also it seams that it uses its own GUI widgets etc rather than the native OS ones but I cannot confirm that 100% as gave up trying to find the relevant info in the docs, there is a QT.dll that gets installed but that may just be for the IDE.

I have kept Freepascal though & done some more searching for other IDE's to work with it & came up empty finding a "create a windows app (visually)" type one, loads for DOS & such though.

I can create windows apps in Freepascal but not visually, which defeats the purpose of the exercise that I am after but it might come in handy for the little quick & dirty console utils that I write occasionally or even DLL creation.

Lee

[bigsofty]

Pick up a 2nd hand copy of Delphi 7, it's old but it works and it's rock solidly reliable.

[fuzzy70]

Pick up a 2nd hand copy of Delphi 7, it's old but it works and it's rock solidly reliable.

Could be an option 

However a new contestant has entered the arena & one which I completely forgot all about, Real Studio http://www.realsoftware.com/realstudio/compare.php

While going through my inbox having a well overdue clearout I came across an email from realsoftware with details for my order & serial number for the enterprise version of Real Studio. The reason I forgot all about it was due to never actually installing it or using it.

That might sound strange but the company I used to work for bought it for me with the intention I was going to make them a bespoke stock control/ordering system. I had no say in the choice of what was used to create it other than I mentioned the word "Basic" & that's what the MD found looking on the web, it looked good to him so he bought it (he was a very strange man to say the least). He done a complete U-turn less than a week later after talking to the supplier of their existing package as he discovered that they offer a service tailoring the package to the customers requirements which was included in the yearly contract fee 

You have to bear in mind that the company sold & rented Audio/Video equipment to companies & my job was to install the equipment in boardrooms & such as well as set the gear up in exhibitions. Other than me & 3 over technicians the rest of the staff where sales & I can honestly say I have never seen so many 1 fingered typists in one room as I did working for them. They didn't even hire out computers till I joined them as they had no clue on how to support them so they hired them in if a job requested them  . It doesn't take a genius to work out that hiring out a PC/laptop at £150 per day takes very little time for it to pay for itself & start making a profit, especially when you was paying another company that money previously.

Lee

[okee]

I don't know about Realbasic though, i bought the standard version a few years ago
and just found every where i turned it was money money money. You buy the RB Pro version
for $299 and you're allowed updates for a year then you have to pay something like $150
again each year after that. it's all very well but you're mostly paying for bug fixes.
Even third party components seemed pricey, i remember looking at a component that automatically
resizes your forms and components depending on the screen resolution, $150
I guess being used to Blitz/Purebasic and GlBasic with such a brilliant community that
shares a lot of useful code you feel like you're getting ripped off.

[fuzzy70]

I have the "Enterprise" version (PC/Linux/Mac/Web) & I just checked their site to discover that's 415,00€ renewal after 12 months. The phrase "Kiss my arse" springs to mind regarding paying that  .

Luckily I still have 4 months left of my original license so was able to update to the current version. Seeing as I have it may as well give it a try & hopefully what I create with it might be in the bug free part of it.

Update regarding Delphi. I was talking to a friend of mine a few mins ago on FB & he thinks he might have a copy sitting sitting around gathering dust at home somewhere. He remembers buying it but decided it wasn't really for him & carried on with C++, may be version 7 personal although he can't remember.

Lee

[fuzzy70]

Attached is the bug fixes that have been applied to Realstudio since my version came out (2011), It makes for very scary reading, not just whats been fixed but the sheer amount of fixes.

Lee


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[fuzzy70]

Well it appears my friend found the Delphi stuff as just had a knock on the door from the postman with a package for me, containing quite a bit of Delphi items like books etc   

Came as a pleasant surprise as he didn't tell me that he managed to find them or that he had posted them.

Lee