iPhone OS 4.0: New License closing doors to GLBasic?

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trucidare

there is no compatibility layer or something else only a precompiled static lib (it can be compiled under mac os and xcode) you can simply add features in given xcode project by adding new .m files.

straight objc/c++ in this lib, the only thing could be the windows thing :/

have to wait for 4.0 in summer.

P.S. Kittie is not available every weekend - family reasons..
MacBook Pro 2,2 GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD, 8600M GT
Core i3 - 3,07 GHz, 8 GB Ram, 2.5 TB HDD, Geforce GTX 260+ OC

mykyl66

Quote from: trucidare on 2010-Apr-11
you can simply add features in given xcode project by adding new .m files.

Is there somewhere I can read exactly how I would do this? e.g. How do I call these new features at this point?

Cheers

Mike R

trucidare

Just read the GLBasic Docu how to import functions and something else
MacBook Pro 2,2 GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD, 8600M GT
Core i3 - 3,07 GHz, 8 GB Ram, 2.5 TB HDD, Geforce GTX 260+ OC

mykyl66

Ah ok. Not quite what I thought you meant. :D I thought you were saying we had the ability to add them in xcode itself not glbasic.

Anyway nothing is set in stone at the moment. We still don't really know whats happening other than that hint from Steve Jobs and his comments as I stated above.

It wont stop me continuing to create in GlBasic. I'm hoping everything goes fine as we are well into our second game and really don't want to have to do a rewrite.

Also there is no waiting till summer. Check your account yourself as to when it must agreed to by any developer.

Cheers

Mike

Hark0

Quote from: trucidare on 2010-Apr-11
P.S. Kittie is not available every weekend - family reasons..

Thanks!

I wait for a Kittie comment....

All we have own home responsibilities.

;)
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Kuron

QuoteAlso, the argument that, its there game, we play by their rules is also invalid IMHO. How many people here have out-laid a tonne of money to get their iPhone development up and running based on their previous TOS?
Isn't the developer license around $100?  That is hardly a ton of money.

QuoteI don't think these kind of changes are completely legal for an established developers currently contracted with Apple.
I do not develop for the iPod, but I feel safe in saying that a developer refusing to keep their apps updated to work properly on new hardware when it is released is not Apple's fault (if anything those developers should not only have their contracts voided, they should be blacklisted from developing for the platform in the future).  I doubt that Apple is giving the developer the right to dictate what hardware Apple is allowed to improve or what changes they are allowed to make.

There is nothing keeping you from supporting those soon to be legacy devices.  You just won't be able to do it via the App store, and rightfully so.  Very soon, there will be no economically viable market for those legacy apps. 

Besides protecting their platform, Apple is protecting you and your app's reputation from you (developers can be lazy and apathetic).  When the new iPods hit, the existing apps in the App store will not work properly on the new devices.  These existing apps were not designed or compiled for a multitasking OS on hardware with a dual core processor.  These current apps will be hogs on the new iPods completely using up system resources and will not only make Apple look bad, they will make the person who wrote them look foolish because the apps do not work properly (not to mention this would kill off repeat customers). 

Why would Apple want to allow software on their new systems that they know will not work properly becacause they were not designed for the new hardware or APIs?

Apple did something similar when 2.0 hit.  Unless Apps were recompiled against the new 2.0 APIs, they were not allowed to be sold via the App store.


This is not directed at you, and is just a generalization based on some of the nonsense I am seeing on blogs and other forums.  Many seem to be out of their league when it comes to iPhone development.  They have no experience developing for hardware platforms and only have experience developing for software platforms like Windows.  Many of these folks also seem to be too young to remember similar issues with Windows back in the day where MS was quickly changing things (including APIs used for games) and your game or program would suddenly not work on the new version of Windows because hardware was changing too quickly and Microsoft was playing catch-up in the beginning.

Many people keep trying to compare iPod development to development on Windows.  You can't compare the two.  iPod is also a hardware device, not just an "OS" like Windows.  Unlike Microsoft, Apple has full control over their hardware, so they never have to play catch-up.  The iPod is due to see a major hardware release upgrade and all exsiting apps will not work properly on the new iPods unless they are recompiled for it.

Apple's new ToS is quite fair IMHO.  If they do not protect the buyers of iPods against "meta platforms" like Flash or Mono (which are like the Borg and literally take over and destroy any platform they come in contact with), people will start leaving the iPhone due to the performance issues and bugs they will encounter and buy a CrackBerry.

iPhones and SmartPhones in general are a constantly changing technology.  From the actual hardware, to the software, to the signal carrying and processing technology.  If a developer can't keep up or is unwilling to keep up with the changes, s/he needs to take a bow and leave the show because there are plenty of developers ready to take their place who are dedicated to the platforms.

Personally, I do not see a problem for GLB or any legitimate development platform that supports iPods via a similar method.



bigsofty

$100? I'm down over $1500 (iPhone+iMac) + $100 all based on their hardware+O.S. requirements for their previous TOS.  :puke:
Cheers,

Ian.

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC.  As potential programmers, they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
(E. W. Dijkstra)

Kuron

I just double checked and the license is for the iPhone Developer license is still $99.  This is the same price as the Mac Developer license if you want to develop software for OSX. 

Yes, is you want to develop for a Mac you need a Mac computer.  If you want to develop for an iPhone you should have an iPhone (although you could skip that).  If you want to develop for Linux you should have a Linux machine.  If you want to develop for Windows, you should have a Windows machine.  Those aren't expenses, it is just common sense.  If you want to write software for a computer, you need a computer  ;/  Trying to write software with a pencil and paper will only get you so far  =D

Kitty Hello

It's C/C++ code you compile. You have the source code in %TEMP%\glbasic\ . It's all safe.

Ozden79

Hello Gernot,

Yes, we know it's C/C++ code we compile but in the TOS it's mentioned that things should be written in the mentioned languages originally and there should be no middleware to interact the IPhone API. In here, we use GLBasic commands which might be count as middleware. This statement is so elastic that even IPhone centric frameworks like Cocos2D might be interpreted in a way as middleware if wanted if you ask me.

It's also interesting that I've checked every major IPhone development kit solution forums to see what they say about that and the funny thing is that most of them think they'll be ok :), only some which use C# think that converting that part to Objective-C would solve it, which I still think won't help. 

Ãâ€"zden

Kuron

QuoteYes, we know it's C/C++ code we compile but in the TOS it's mentioned that things should be written in the mentioned languages originally
You do realize that C and C++ are two of the languages mentioned?  As I mentioned before, GLB is not a compiler, it appears to be a preprocessor for GCC.  GLB being a preprocessor for C/C++ code is fundamentally no different than using macros in C++.

You should read Steve Jobs' comments which I linked above to understand what his intent is.

Quoteand there should be no middleware to interact the IPhone API. In here, we use GLBasic commands which might be count as middleware.
Perhaps we could stick with facts.  3.3.1 makes no mention of middleware.  GLB does not meet the definition of middleware.  You are not using GLB commands in your C/C++ code.  C/C++ will not compile GLB commands, the C/C++ compiler would generate massive syntatical errors if you tried.  GLB does not compile code for the iPhone.  It is simply a preprocessor that generates the code in the format that even the new license specifies is required for compilation for iPhone and you have to use those required and license specified tools to compile the code which GLB generates (which is generated in the exact format the new license specifies).

bigsofty

Quote from: Kuron on 2010-Apr-12
I just double checked and the license is for the iPhone Developer license is still $99.  This is the same price as the Mac Developer license if you want to develop software for OSX. 

Yes, is you want to develop for a Mac you need a Mac computer.  If you want to develop for an iPhone you should have an iPhone (although you could skip that).  If you want to develop for Linux you should have a Linux machine.  If you want to develop for Windows, you should have a Windows machine.  Those aren't expenses, it is just common sense.  If you want to write software for a computer, you need a computer  ;/  Trying to write software with a pencil and paper will only get you so far  =D

No this is not correct, GLB is quite capable of programming the iPhone without a Mac or OSX at all, again another Apple TOS forces developers to use their hardware for the final unnecessary XCode compile stage. This is the only reason I have a Mac sitting beside my computer now, I was forced to buy it or I would not get my game released on the App Store.

Its a very badly worded TOS, as even the O.S. can be seen as an intermediate API... :P
Cheers,

Ian.

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC.  As potential programmers, they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
(E. W. Dijkstra)

Kuron

Quote from: bigsofty on 2010-Apr-12This is the only reason I have a Mac sitting beside my computer now, I was forced to buy it or I would not get my game released on the App Store.
This comment should be included with anything you sell, and displayed before the sale.  The fact that you do not have enough pride in your own work or respect for your customers to actually want to test what you write on its target platform speaks volumes to not only your capabilities, but your inexperience and lack of professionalism.

Quoteagain another Apple TOS forces developers to use their hardware for the final unnecessary XCode compile stage.
Nobody is forcing you to support the iPhone, and what you are crying about only applies if you want to release your games via the App Store.

At the end of the day, it comes down to: if you want to be a grown up and play store and sell things, you will have expenses.  That is part of running a business.  The great thing is since you are running a business, those expenses are legitimate business expenses and are generally tax deductible, so the expense is not even a legitimate gripe at the end of the day.

Complaining that you actually have to buy a certain computer to develop computer software for it is one of the most bizarre and ridiculous things I have ever read.

QuoteIts a very badly worded TOS, as even the O.S. can be seen as an intermediate API...
I thought it was pretty clear.  The only people really having an issue with it are the kids on blogs and forums spouting off about how this is the end of the world for iPhone development, when they clearly have not read the new ToS, or if they have, they lack the reading comprehension skills (and development experience) necessary to understand it.


Moru

Quote from: Kuron on 2010-Apr-12
Complaining that you actually have to buy a certain computer to develop computer software for it is one of the most bizarre and ridiculous things I have ever read.

He never said he didn't want to buy an iPhone. He doesn't want to have a Mac to be able to compile and run programs on the iPhone. I can't help but agree on this. Just because I want to develop applications for GP2X does not mean I have to install a dedicated linux computer since GLBasic can crosscompile perfectly fine. Why is this not possible for iPhone when you can compile for all other platforms on windows? Even OS-X applications can be compiled on windows and then tested on OS-X. Well, it's because apple don't want you to. That is what he is griping about.

Ian Price

Quote from: Moru on 2010-Apr-12
Quote from: Kuron on 2010-Apr-12
Complaining that you actually have to buy a certain computer to develop computer software for it is one of the most bizarre and ridiculous things I have ever read.

He never said he didn't want to buy an iPhone. He doesn't want to have a Mac to be able to compile and run programs on the iPhone. I can't help but agree on this. Just because I want to develop applications for GP2X does not mean I have to install a dedicated linux computer since GLBasic can crosscompile perfectly fine. Why is this not possible for iPhone when you can compile for all other platforms on windows? Even OS-X applications can be compiled on windows and then tested on OS-X. Well, it's because apple don't want you to. That is what he is griping about.

I totally agree - surely this is anti-competetive? Ford (etc.) don't impose restrictions on what people do with their cars or state that only official Ford parts can be used to modify/improve/alter/repair them. Microsoft don't state that only Windows software can be used to create Windows software etc. etc. etc. If they did people would be shouting from the rooftops.

Developers should say a big "F U APPLE" but they won't because many of them are reliant on selling their software via the only "legally" available and route to the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad. Maybe a class action against Apple could be called, using its monopoly against users.

CodeMasters developed games for SEGA and Nintendo systems (using their own reverse engineered code) without licences back in the 90s and successfully won court cases against both (brought about by said companies). the case here wouldn't and shouldn't be too different as long as no Apple code was used to develop for the iXXX machines.
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